NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

Transactional analysis is a bit like the missing link, even though you feel a bit like a dolt when you read about it. In normal circumstances, though, since everyone fits some sort of mould, you're going to come out unscathed, (maybe skint, because there are insights into behaviour there that were quickly put to good use by business) but not a quivering, self-doubting mess as you end up when you have a brush with a narcissist.

Ns are not aware. That is why dealing with them is like banging your head against a wall. They are like a train on a track. Being aware of your own relatively benign script as well as being able to spot their malevolence is such a useful tool.

Yes. Thank you, Math, I hadn't picked out the relevance there. TA is really helping me identify how my scripts made me such prime narc fodder (unsurprisingly, since they were written for me by a pair of narcs). There's a client checklist at the end of WDYSAYSH and the first time I read the book, I 'failed' practically every point. Now I'm down to about 30% - which means I'm 70% LESS likely to engage with narcs and similarly malicious creatures. Hurrah, to put it mildly!

I've ordered a new copy of Games. I read it once from a sales point of view, then again after I started therapy. I'm really looking forward to the third reading :)
After that I'm going to re-read my Bradshaws. And, perhaps, revisit NLP - I only did that as a work thing, but I've still got the books.

Between us all, we should open a practice [joke]!

Grace , what is WDYSAYSH ?
I think i might have those resuer tendancys. In fact , bollocks, i know i have . I know why ive got them , is it possible to get rid of them entireley or do you always have to be aware ?

While im ordering books , has anyone got any recomedations ?

"What Do You Say After You Say Hello?", which is the follow-up to "Games People Play". Both by Eric Berne.

Rescuers have co-dependent tendencies (the symbiosis where you need someone to need you, and they need you to need that.) Melody Beattie's book puts some people off because of its bias towards alcoholic relationships, but it's the classic text for good reasons. I think co-dependency is one of those issues where you start curing yourself as soon as you start learning about it - 'Co-Dependent No More's checklists can really wake you up to yourself.

Dignified if you havent ordered the book yet, the one that woke me up to all this was The emotionally abusive relationship by Engel, (which maybe you already have) I WANT TO get the emotionally abused woman by engel as my next.
and also another one is Emotional Unavailability : Recognizing It, Understanding It, and Avoiding Its Trap by Bryn Collins, this is good as it goes through the 'types', has chapter on Narcissists too.

Funny as I never thought of myself as a 'rescuer' but I guess actually I am, I always go for guys I can help or change...... ok cringe.... damn it. I have 'Codependant no more', but like you said ISGA I never got into it cus of its reference to alcoholics. But maybe its worth another read now!

p.s has anyone read any of these books? I am looking on Amazon.com to see what else is there:
The Manipulative Man, Dorothy McCoy
Narcissistic Lovers, Cynthia Zayn
Breaking The Cycle of Abuse, Engel
How to spot a dangerous man before you get involved, Sandra BROWn

I've just ordered "Games People Play" from the library based on this conversation. Some of the descriptions of the "games" cut uncomfortably close to home for me.

I've been thinking about the empathy issue, and I've come to the conclusion that my ex isn't a true narcissist because somewhere inside him I think there is a little spark of empathy left. I'm discounting the pitying things he's said about his family (who live in a very poor country) and DD, because I think they are attempts to manipulate me. I'm also discounting how much he identified with Idi Amin in "The last king of Scotland" because, frankly, that's just scary. But on at least one occasion, he expressed sympathy for somebody he met through work, an older man who was a university professor at home in Eastern Europe, but who was looking unsuccessfully for manual work in the UK. He identified partly because he feel he doesn't have a career that reflects his brilliance - but still, he recognised that another person really exists and is suffering.

He still shows lots of N behaviour, even if he's not a true N. He was still abusive (emotionally, verbally, financially, physically) to me and there's no way I'd ever go back. But maybe he's not quite the hollow shell that many of you have encountered.

My ex got very caught up in the final days of an older man he had met through a professional committee he was on. He made quite a thing of his sympathy for this man, even though they had known each other less than a year, but close to the time exH had had a lump removed so he was no stranger to the C word himself. He died of cancer and exH went to his funeral. ExH used to get very emotionally attached to older men though, and I think he identified with this particular man as he had cancer and was in the same profession. I think the sympathy was partly projection; this man suffered his own worst case scenario that never actually materialised.

Ah, projection. You know what, math, maybe that's what my ex had going on as well. Hard to know, without being inside his head. And it doesn't matter to me, really, except in relation to his ability to parent our DD.

Empathy's a tricky and much-misused word. As Vaknin points out (my therapist agreed), Nracissists do have 'empathy' in that they can accurately pinpoint the vulnerabilities and likely responses of others. They are capable of excellent human insight, which they use as a tool for their own ends. Amongst the supposedly less-extreme PDs, Borderliners are noted for their spectacular insight & understanding of others (which, again, is used as a manipulative tool).

I think you can find a great deal of understanding with an abuser. The trouble is that they'll never use it for benevolent purposes! It's all about them. Always. But that's why it's so hard to avoid being drawn in, and so hard to get away.

I think i must be going through a wobbly patch . I spent a few hours with EH yesterday ( child related ). He took great delight in loudly exclaiming " Oh my god !!! Youve got a grey hair !!" while griining stupidly . The joy it gave him was evident. I considered asking how his parents were , saying i havent seen them for a while , and had been wondering if he,d eaten them due to his massive tum , but didnt.

Instead i stated i wasnt keen on having personal remarks made about my apearance and it wasnt something i missed. Of course i cant take a joke , same old , same old. Later on we touched on our divorce where he stated that " You KNOW all i think about is the kids , you KNOW im one of the best dads you know , you KNOW this and that ect " . I wasnt accusing him but i could see the fear on his face , that i might say something that might shatter his illusion of being this great guy , so he got in there first. Because of course , if he says it , its true.

Im pissed off. Ive been well and truly screwed over financially and im feeling it , currently left owing half a million quid while this nasty little man gloats. I know its only money , we are all ok, everyones in good health , but honestly, it kills me sometimes to keep a lid on it.

dignified - not surprised you're pissed off and wobbly.That's a lot of money to be done out of,especially by such a nasty little toad.

Well done for being able to stand your ground and bat his remarks away.

Wish I could offer more - you have been so level headed and right on the mark,and I have felt very supported by you re my recent stuff.

I'm not in a good place right now.Not on top,or even near.Way too much on my plate.Am disappearing under it all.Seeing GP tomorrow.Lurking,but not posting as lost my voice a bit.

x to all

As they seem to have this bullying tendency, then like all true bullies they can give but not receive, Dignified next time he says something like this to you, say what you're thinking, then rely on us to 'keep the piece'...and of course they are always 'laid back' about everything. But if we do stand up to them then they're not to happy and of course any remarks about hem getting older will always cut by the quick. Sometimes I think that we have spent so long being reasonable and not rising to the taunts, that when we do they get a bit of a shock. If he wasn't the way that he was he wouldn't be gloating over your debt, in fact he would be worrying over the impact that it would have on his children (because he's such a fantastic Dad!!!)

Do not feel like you should have to keep a lid on it. They are so good at making heir nasty little comments, and if we dare rise to it, then it's turned and twisted to be our fault...ahhh sorry having a bi of a rant onight!!

Pinemarta sorry that things are not to good at the moment, but I am thinking about you x

I'm with you, Dig. Just been painting over one of the crappy surfaces in my cheap, rented, rural house - this is taking forever as I can't even afford bloody paint very often. I couldn't help feeling a surge of indignation that I had to give up my own beautiful, lovingly renovated, non-crappy, London flat due to the combined abuses of XH and Xboss. I saw a photo of XH on someone else's Facebook yesterday and the bastard's STILL smirking!!

Hrrrmph.
My house is sweet, I'm grateful and this is a healing time for me ... but still!!!! I sympathise. You were right on the other thread, though: anger IS motivating!

PM, I'm sorry you're struggling :( Hope you lay it on really thick to the doc. You need more help than you're getting. xx

Pm, sorry your feeling a bit crap , its not surprising, it catches up with us occasionally doesnt it .

I am feeling like i fancy a little wallow , ( boo hoo ) a good whinge at the unfairness of it all and these wasted years to a man who honestly DOES look like hes eaten his family. I know thats a cheap shot but i dont care. Tonight i ended up having angry thoughts and ranting to myself , outraged about the effect this monster has had on us all.

I know what he is , and why. Tonight i raged about his mother who is the exact same , who critizes and puts down and is a horrible cow , and thought about her mum too, who is exactly the same and a horrible cow. I did all this at counselling and know why. Yet every now and then i come cack to this angry place and i hate it. I think abut my family too , and the lessons i was taught , and rage.

Earlier i went outside and stood barefoot in the grass and looked at the stars . I usually think about all the other people on our planet , how we all breathe the same recycled air and how we are all, in a strange way , connected to each other . I often think about other women living in various countries and the atrocities they face on a daily basis , and i am gratefull for my lot . Tonight i felt invisable , helpless , hopeless and absoluteley outraged.
I feel outraged at my family for being the shits they were , although i know, thats all they knew .

Wallow , wallow , wallow . Who would i have been if i had a half decent family , what could i have acheived ? I bet just ONE bad decision in generations past has caused all this , some fucking great great grandma who didnt have a clue and ended up passing it down until it reached me and mine. Cheers great grandma, you old fuck. Thanks a lot.

I know its unreasonable.

Yes, but justified! And thanks for "Cheers great grandma, you old fuck." I might make a plaque of it

....yes and "your dogs a bastard"......

cried at your post (good thing,as am frozen/stuck)

but laughed at that too

much thanks

pinemarta how did the docs go, was it worth the visit? how are you feeling today?

Just back.Found it all very difficult.

Am really not in a good way - not sleeping at all and lie there,unable to switch off racing thoughts and ruminations,persecutory stuff and traumatic memories.Buzzing in my head.Nothing helps.

Has got slowly worse.Makes me very irritable and slow in the day.Stress symptoms ,like intolerance and frustration with everything - anything at all becoming evidence of failure to cope.

Feel like curling up in a ball and crying,but fear I'd never stop.And obviously can't ,with baby and dc around.

Baby sleeping less in day and still BF on demand.She wakes 2-3 times at night for a feed.
Have to take dd3 to school,and collect her.New school,am cheery and chatty so as to increase chance of making friends.Other mums come to pet baby;it would not be appropriate to be "real",so I wear a happy face and make light.

Ds came to me for weekend.This followed him pleading to speak to me,apologising and starting to negotiate in a positive way.He came on trial and is with xh again during this week - structured time and a further "consequence".We are helping him to use traffic lights and cool down stuff .It worked with me this weekend.

Went away Fri,sat,sun.Probably took on too much.It did not go well for me.Too much organisation,effort and "being cheerful" ,although,in the end the dc had a great time..
When we eventually found her,3 hours late, (massive organisation and hassle for me to engineer,as we were staying in Bristol and had arranged to meet in Bath),the friend who had suggested the trip was actually with her dp and his friends,no dc.A grown up group.,they were on for a pub garden ,sunshine party...all a bit tipsy...looked like fun...but not really the place for 4 dc and a baby
I ended up with the dc on my own.Again.

On the plus side..I am sure I did not make a mistake.My friend had definitely suggested she would like to meet me and dc and not mentioned her dp,who I had not met before.She is very loved up over him,and behaved completely differently in his presence.He wouldn't leave us to talk alone.He repeatedly referred to her by a pet name he uses whilst patting her bum.He appeared horrified at my dc turning up.
TBH ,I would have him down as a controlling arse.I didn't want to be around them .
That's a first for me - that I didn't envy her for being happy and in love.And that my radar spotted him.And I think he spotted me noticing,IYSWIM.
I actually walked off with my rabble,through the heaving city centre ,back to the park and ride,feeling like I had the better deal.

However.I used up the last of my energy reserves.And we were staying with xh1.He's another one who lives in his own nice little universe.Not an abuser.Loves the dd's - and my others,who are fond of him...but is emotionally immature and totally self centred.
I came home exhausted.DD1 decided to have a huge temper tantrum because I told her off for swearing at dd3.She escalated it off the scale and called me every name she could muster.This resumed Monday morning.She tore up her Art project,was horrified and then scratched her fingernails all down her face,drawing blood.She has brown skin which will scar.She had sufficient control to wash her face and re -do her eye-liner before school.And to carefully sellotape the painting.

I had a missed call from the school nurse,very concerned,asking what was going on,saying dd wouldn't speak to her.

I have had a letter from the education department saying they do not support my appeal re ds's school placement.The hearing is next week.It will leave me with no choice than to approach a school 20 miles away.

My parents persist in badgering me to visit and are nasty when put off.

I am on half pay but must face a tribunal if I initiate contact with work.I am completely traumatised by my experiences with my boss and colleague and ruminate constantly.

I am terrified I will develop a psychotic illness,as per mother and g'mother.

My dc are furious with me for slacking,and that "we are not like other families"

The dd's are now starting to be angry about xp.They now recall his controlling and moody behaviour.That is good for them to do...but I feel SO GUILTY that I put them through it.

I feel like the worst mother

I told the GP all this.

She wants to see me weekly and has prescribed ad's.I had bloods done.
They want to allocate a social worker.I am really against this as it feels like I have failed utterly,and I may well know the team as a co worker.

Homestart are going to do an extra hour.

The fact remains that there are not enough of me to go round,and that can't be resolved.There are no co parent/mutually supportive partners on prescription.
I brought this on myself.It is MY responsibility to give my dc a better deal than the one I had.I have failed to do this,and this is the result.

I seriously cannot believe I let that man near me.I feel like I was fed drugs.What was I doing??????That's my baby's dad...this time last year I SERIOUSLY BELIEVED I was at the start of a whole new happy life.

My brain is short circuiting.

Oh yeah and I had a flashback last night to stuff my dad and brother used to do to me.

How have I just got that going on now.At 42.???

My dc are furious with me for slacking,and that "we are not like other families"

Stamp out any thoughts or claims of slacking Pm , you ARE like other familys , millions of them , and your doing a damm good job of it too. Your dcs HAVE got a better deal than the one you had , theyve got you havent they.

Re your daughter , ( i assume shes a teen ) dont assume this sort of thing is due to you or your circumstances , nearly all the teen girls i know have gone through a stage of acting bonkers , mine included , its sort of compulsery with them .

You talk of letting them down , failure ect , this is NOT so pm , they are not starving to death and you havent abandoned them or anything like that..remind them of that next time they complain ,, Watch yourself , mine were like sharks whove smelt blood and could tell if i was feeling guilty or like a failure .

The most important thing , your grandkids wont be saying " Thanks a fucking lot grandma " , and nor will theirs , or theirs after them . How many generations will now say No to abuse ? Your actions have likeley changed the lives of people who havent even been born yet . Think about that and give yourself a pat on the back.

The most important thing is what Dignified said there, PM. You've BROKEN a cycle that's doubtless been going on for generations, passed along from mother to daughter and father to son. That is one big project (my sibs haven't managed it) - and you've done it! Actually done it. For real. This may well feel like the bottom, but you're already on the recovery stretch. You're giving your children awareness of what's been happening, and why, too. They will appreciate that - they're already emotionally intelligent, from your other posts; this will turn into wisdom as they grow up, and you'll be so proud of them!

I'm both sorry to hear about your flashback, and reassured by it. Surely this means you're breaking through the 'fog' at preconscious levels now? In the same way as you evaluated your friend's slimy boyfriend, and have lost your delusions about your exes, the other veils of deception are falling away.

Congrats on DS :) Don't blame yourself for DD, she was having a teenage "eppy" (as we used to call them) and made a splendid recovery. I think you should accept the social worker. This is the wrong time to worry about what "they" will think of you - those chips are going to fall in due course anyway. Right now you've got a family to raise and you need more help. A social worker is the line to that help.

Much love.

Hi pm. I will email you later when H is in bed. I just want to say that you probably are doing too much.

You have been superwoman. Truly. But you do not need to keep being superwoman any more. You must slow down. This was some useful advice that was given to me when I was boiling over and breaking up: literally, slow down.

Make the small decisions really slowly - I mean the ones about putting the kettle on, or opening a window, running a DC bath, changing a nappy. Just slow everything right down.

The morning will come and the evening will follow it. So in between, take slow steps, think about each action and it helps to stop rising panic.

The work thing is work's problem. You have a very good job. I had an excellent solicitor - an expert in this field - when I went through my shit with work. I could give you her name and number. She was fantastic. No matter that she isn't local to you. Everything can be done by email these days.

Please cut yourself and DCs some slack. I agree with others that DD1 is tantruming because it is something they do, and - as dignified so brilliantly put it, they smell blood!

You are going to have big dips. You are coming to terms with so much. You are one brave and highly intelligent woman. It isn't going to take you too long to start really evening out the peaks and troughs.

My ex left in June 2008, and you have seen first-hand how far I have come.

Just slow up. Think little actions through. Keep feeding and hugging your gorgeous baby. You are going to be fine. xx

Nothing to do with the current convo - this thread could do with frequent bumps at the moment anyway, so many creepy men seem to have crawled out from under their holiday stones.

Just wanted to post this, for my record as much anything else. I'm choosing singledom. Not 'for now', not 'probably' nor 'while I sort myself out'. I've always liked being single, and now I'm actively choosing it.
Yay me!

Very many thanks (((((((()))))))xxx