NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

Hi Red ,
Theres nothing wrong with you at all , all of us here have had a similar experience , weve all been sucked in and theres nothing wrong with any of us. Its them.

Have you had any counselling ? Have you read much about emotional abuse or Narcs , theres some good links at the beginning of this thread. If not , i suggest you do , learning about it , what they do , the dynamics and the effects it has all helps . I have a range of excellant books that i no longer need , i am happy to post them out to you , or anyone else who fancys a read.

Stick around , the women on here are loveley and have all been where you are . And hats off to you for getting away , that mustve been so hard.

They are not real people Red , they are souless damaged individuals who see everything in a warped bizarre way , its evident by their lies and the way they rewrite history.

Have had a shit day myself today ( im moving out of the family home ) and have felt really upset and emotional about it , end of the world type of dramatics. I then come on here and read about your moving back to the uk and this " I found a job and a house and started afresh ".
( kicks my own arse for being so dramatic )

hey - there is always someone worse off huh, i tell myself off too, for feeling sorry for myself.

Sorry your having a bad day, and hope the move goes well. ( or as well as it can)

The lies and the rewriting of history, you are so right. he constantly lied, about everything, all the time. even down to what he had had for lunch or something. Then would deny it and say i was going crazy, or had misheard him.
The only time i remotley got him to admitt to it was the two weeks after i found all his pictures. he said he chose just to ignore me and wind me up. Im presuming it was punishment for finding his pics.

I do not understand it, and never will. How he totally rationalises how he behaved. it was always me, or my fault.

Thing is i have a toxic mother, an emotionally unavaliabe dad and a step mother who hated the ground i walked on. ( and still does) its not surprising i went off with him.

What worries me, is that this will happen again, and that i just dont know how to have a normal relationship, you know.
Ive got no experience of it.

That's why doing some reading and talking with a counsellor might be a good thing. Best thing is to focus on you and your baby and setting yourself back on your feet, as you're doing, and looking back with kindness in your heart for yourself.

redderthanred...I'm so sorry you have been through a truly awful time with this man, reading your story again leaves me mouth hanging wide open with shock about how these men behave, as have many of the stories on this thread. I bet you have forgotten a lot, by the sounds if here was so much of it.

You've clearly not had good role models so understand why you are frightened of this happening again (I think that most of us on here have a fear of that in different degrees)

Are you feeling any better at all after the last 20 months? Have you been to your doctor and asked about counselling? because from what you are writing it may be an option that you could benefit from hugely.

What I'm beginning to understand and you must to, is just what everybody else says on here it really isn't you, he has behaved like a total twunt Unfortunately you end up that emotionally battered that you tend to doubt yourself, are you beginning to see that his behaviour was unreasonable and just downright nasty in unpicking your self-esteem in this way.

I'm a novice at this, but the ladies on here do have some great advice and the validation of finally being listened to and knowing that it wasn't you does genuinely help.

xx

I had a nasty ,arrogant letter this morning from xh,very sorry for himself and whining about me giving him mixed messages and shifting goal posts . He really doesn't get it,and is still in a position where he obviously considers that "our" relationship is the issue here.
Poor Ds has backed himself into a difficult corner,I think.I spoke to the gp for a long time this am.She really didn't want to refer him anywhere - ther aren't any services in Wales anyway,other than severe end of the scale and emergency - fostering or acute hospital. She was understanding about the factors involved,but it's another case of me "coping so well" that I am not eligible for any support.It is the same where my personal issues and support needs are concerned.
Anyway,she felt he needed to be in school...well,of course he does.But I have had a letter to say that the appeal hearing will not be until 27th Sept.There is no option other than to keep him at home until then since his old school are upset about my ground for moving him (!).
So,I arranged to meet them in town - 16 miles away for me,but walking distance for them - I didn't want him to come here.He kept me waiting for an hour so I had little time left before rushing back for school.
Xh had not washed or shaved or changed his clothes since I last saw him,he snivelled a lot and was smelly .
Ds was glowering and silent.He refused to speak at all and wouldn't come near me.Xh just kept pleading with him to "tell us what you're thinking".
I had to bite back my deep irritation.I told Ds that I would love to have him come home and that we all missed him,but that I had really not seen anything which convinced me it would be a good plan. I told him that if he had decided he wanted to live with Dad,we could sit down and make a plan,but that if he continued to be silent,he would end up having his choice made for him.
I said he would hopefully be back in school in a few weeks ,but that his behaviour and actions over this time would be the ultimate factor.
He ran away.I stopped Xh from running after him.I then had to rush to collect dd3,but I told him he may have to plan to be off work until aftr the 27th and look after Ds at his flat,if the situation doesn't move forward.

I told him I would be available to talk again on Thursday ,but would only come if Ds has initiated any discussion wiyth him first,and I am made aware of this Wednesday night.I advised him to do "boot camp" style arrangements at his flat for Ds - all privileges removed and all but basic comforts to be earned back through appropriate conduct - he should expect ds to be clean,tidy,up in the morning,helping with chores,polite in speech with eye contact,responding when spoken to etc.as a base line...

I suggested that he might want to set a good example re personal hygiene....
Xh started to whine about it being too difficult.but I walked away.

BTW, as I expected,I noticed Ds lurking round the corner on my way back to the car!

Your XH sounds as if he is very depressed. And contrary.

And I think your DS may well want to come home soon, even if your X doesn't agree to co-operate with any of the earning of privileges approach you outlined. If neither of them washes and they spend their time slouching around in week-old clothing, someone may call SS too.

pm, that must have been incredibly hard for you to do.
How do you feel about the situation? How has your xh been coping with ds? Is it usual for xh to let himself get into that kind of physical and/or mental state?
Did you discuss this plan of action with the doctor, or if not, did she suggest anything else, or did she just say she couldn't refer you anywhere?
Sorry for all the questions. Your post is so matter-of-fact it's hard to figure out what's going through your mind and how you are coping. It sounds absolutely horrible for you and ds.

Thanks,ma and q. I am feeling really stuck tbh.

I tried to hug ds and he kicked me and then sat right away from me.
Xh is impossible to deal with.Yes,it is normal for him to be like that on his days off.I think they spent the weekend slobbing on the sofa watching tv.
No one here will call ss.I was unable to get gp to see my fears as more than understandable worries which will settle.She thought it was inappropriate to call the police.
She suggested the plan of action.
Xh has a nice public school voice and is very articulate with anyone he has to or chooses to speak to.
If Ds comes home and carries on hitting out at me.What can I do?
I want him to come home,but I haven't the energy to fight him right now.Xh says he thinks ds doesn't want to live with me any longer,but he sees this whole thing as being about my anger with him.His letter was so arrogant and whiny ,complaining that he is excluded from our family after my welcoming him back for the holiday.He also dredged up details of arguments from years ago,and divorce stuff.

My hope is that,now this is no longer Dads weekend,DS will ask his dad to bring him home,or say he wants to come.Then his dad needs to get him to speak to me about how we can get to that.
Apparently,he was "Normal" over the weekend.
I had hoped xh would have been doing the consequences stuff then,but he was taken up with anger at me.

I did speak to the gp about all this,but she said we have to put our differences aside for ds's sake...of course we do .but.

I don't have much confidence that xh will do more than continue to slob around with ds.
But I am really stuck.
I've got to write a report for the appeal hearing and attend it to put my case across.

I don't even know if ds will go to school if that were an option right now.

Sorry the GP fobbed you off with platitudes and optimism and advice that is not really useful (put aside your differences, wtf?)

This might be useful? Or this?

Hey PM,

I work in the field of conscious parenting etc. Sounds like it is a pretty difficult situation regards your DS.

I really recommend this lady's work. She deals with children who have very difficult or severe behaviours, yet she comes from the basis of gentle dicipline and conscious parenting.

She's wrote a number of books too you can pick up and does things online etc.

Her website is here:

www.beyondconsequences.com/

Pm , i think you handled that brilliantly , well done . I know your ex is a cryer and a sniveller , i imagine hes never had to really be a parent as you are so capable , so its about time he found out what its like. Your ds has two parents , not one , , hes perfectly safe there and i would happily leave him there until the beginning of school if nothing changes.

Your gp sounds a bit crap to be honest , i was hoping she would refer you somewhere. Have you spoken to womans aid about this ?

Of course you're feeling stuck, with no outside help when you ask for it, xh dredging up ancient history and trying to make things all about him, and your other dcs and a baby to take care of. And you need to stay strong for them.
Do xh and ds normally do all right together? Even if xh is being useless it might not be too bad for ds to stay there and give you a break. Is ds mature/sensible enough to be able to think constructively about what he needs to do if he wants to come home? How do you feel about his refusing to talk to you? This is a horrible way to treat him but you have your other dcs and your own welfare to think about.

dignified - that's where I'm coming from with it .
I think ds is enjoying the way his dad is getting upset - he's got a lot of control over his dad right now.I think he could be enjoying that.
I'm hoping he will get fed up and want to be home,then realise that he has to pack in the extreme stuff.He is very bright and usually very level.Maybe he's having a long tantrum now that things are more settled at home.I don't know.
I think his dad will lose out on his sons respect if he doesn't pull his socks up.He has a good opportunity to build a different relationship with him these next few weeks.

I did say to ds that I woul be taking bby and dd3 out for the day on Saturday and that if he wanted to come we'd love to have him,but only if he can tell dad and me how that would work.(hoping he will start by saying sorry ,at least) but I won't cajole him.I think he needs to see I am being tough right now.

The gp is pretty good as they go,round here.There are no services ,seriously.WA have no funding.I have spoken to them at length.They used to have a family worker but the budget was cut.Now they do drop in for coffee on a Friday,Freedom Prog and Refuge only.They had nothing to suggest.

Thanks quid.My other dc are worried I will let him come back and start running about again.Although they miss him - but obviously not his behaviour lately.

math and freedom - thanks,I will sit and read through now.

Sorry, pm, don't think I worded that last part well, maybe I should have said it's a horrible way to have to treat him. It is harsh but it may be the only way to go, and it's rough for you too.
Even if his dad doesn't pull himself together, at least this will give everyone some breathing space. And you are making it clear to ds that you still love him and want him around and are not abandoning him.
You're probably feeling overwhelmed but I think you're being amazingly strong.

he's got a lot of control over his dad right now.

I think thats his dads problem to be honest . Ive experienced similar , ive tried to help , acted as a go between , suggested limits ect , but i always got blamed in some sense by somebody so i just bowed out . I wasnt responsible for their relationship, and your not responsible for theirs either .

Besides , like you , i had to cope constantly with how she was here , it really wasnt fair of him to expect me to get involved with what was going on there as well ( the times he had her was a well needed break ) Sometimes it felt like they both couldnt wait to grass the other up .

My situation is a little similar to yours PM, i met Narc when my kids were quite small so the dad im refering to is ex ex if you see what i mean. He is an arse , emotionally immature , but she was safe there , and for a short time , not my problem.

I think its ok for him to stay there a while , he HAS to learn that awful behaviour has its consequences. It doesnt mean you dont love him , it means you refuse to be hit and kicked and have your property broken by him , and he also needs to learn that love is not a self sacrificing bollox thing and that people will be tortured in the name of it.

If you can , i would avoid any chats with his dad about it in his ear shot , as you say , he might well be enjoying it , he has , after all , upset you and his sisters to the point youve called the police , and now his dads being dramatic and snivelling ,
i would continue to keep it low key like you did when you saw them . I apreciate his dad wont do that though.

And i love this "Xh started to whine about it being too difficult.but I walked away " hehe good on you.

Pm , do you think ds really does hate his dad ?

My dd would complain about going , always had a hard done to story about what he said , or didnt say ect , she talked about him with contempt and regularly came home upset. Of course i would listen and comfort her.

Me and her dad had quite a horrible break up years ago. It left me feeling quite guilty and i often wondered if she picked up on this , well actually she didnt need to because like yours he was always snivveling about it . Often when shed had a tantrum she would blame the situation with her dad , if she was upset she said it was about her dad , you get the picture.

To some extent , im sorry i listened to it because although i think he is an arsehole , hes not a bad person , he wouldnt hurt her and he just does things differantly . Yes hes a bit of a whinger , yes he goes on a bit , but she was hardly being abused in any way shape or form . Lots of kids want their dad to be more fun , outgoing , take them out more , whatever , but they dont go on like she did.

To be honest i think she went on because she got a good reaction from me ( of course i listened ) and i inadvertantly fed it whereas really i shouldve stamped it out .

dignified,I think you could be spot on here.The situation sounds very ,very similar.

Xh is weak and emotionally inadequate,but certainly not abusive to his dc.If anything ,he indulges them and fawns over them - snivelling - in case they don't like him.

I too have felt guilty about our break up,which was when ds was 3.
He had made a huge mess financially,placing our house at risk.Despite my bailing him out loads ,he refused to discuss it or reveal the full extent until there was 60k owed on loads of cards and the bailiffs came to take the tv.He did nothing but cry.I tricked him into going to visit his parents for a while to give us some space,then had all the locks changed,put his stuff in the shed,started divorce proceedings and refused even to speak to him except through solicitors for 2 years.

He used to wander around outside the house shouting and crying,begging me to let him in - when the dc were in bed - but managed to take them out every other weekend and took them on holiday twice with his parents.His family hate me and run me down to anyone who'll listen,including the dc.Ds loves to be as badly behaved as possible when seeing them - they stayed ay his dads recently.

The dc say that sometimes daddy drinks beer and then cries about missing me.

As I say,he comes over as lovely to most people.and has lots of very nice friends.He wasn't/isn't an abuser,I don't think,just useless.He usually means well,but gets it badly wrong.

So,I think Ds could well be enjoying being the stronger man,here.
He is pushing a big button of xh's.He is an intellectual snob - public school,Oxford - and his contemporaries are high profile academics,writers and public figures.He is in a big flap that Ds is going to close down all options for his future and -"horror"- slide socially downwards ...Of course that is not a value I reinforce.....maybe that's the power?

If he did decide to move in with his dad,he would likely become the total focus of his dads life......hey,that could be what he's getting here - usually,xh pets and babies dd and takes her side in anything - against ds....maybe he's forcing his dad to notice him?

Anyway,I am sure he will either love it or get fed up - in which case,he knows what to do.His dad has taken 3 wks leave - unpaid- all for him.

Pm , how do you feel about him possibly living with his dad ? Dd often claimed she wanted to live with her dad , cue lots of phone calls and drama, it got close a few times but she always " decided " that she didnt want to and would end up back here.

Eventually ex stated quite firmly that he wasnt having a kid dictate like this anymore , he would no longer be coming to collect her after yet another tantrum or book time of work while she decided where she wanted to live , he felt that if she lived there the situation would just be reversed , and that her living there was no longer up for discussion.

I regret allowing her to " decide " , thats a lot of power at that age , and she played us both like a fiddle , you can imagine. At the time i thought she should be able to decide if she wasnt happy here , but then again i wouldnt let her decide that she not going to school anymore , or let her decide to stay up till midnight every day.

I wonder if you should decide for him , and take back the control. The fact hes considering living with his dad shows that he doesnt hate him and their relationship cannot be that bad. Perhaps weigh up what YOU want to do and inform him of this.

dignified,thanks again. I agree.Xh emailed a while ago to say ds is stomping about,"refusing" to do the drying up and "dictating" what is on tv........

However,he also said he doesn't believe Ds should live with him (quel surprise)...but suggests he arrange his work so that he can have an overnight with him in the week after Rugby practice and alternate weekends guaranteed .....amazingly enough,that is what he is supposed to have,but xh has been "unable" to negotiate with his boss ,and so it has all been hit and miss,though frequent.

He said he didn't think Ds should have a choice about this,but should be told!

Says he wants to move to a flat in our town and find work here too,so ds and dd can come and go - and go there to "cool off" if need be.That will take some organizing.

Well,I'd rather have him at home with us.But will not be able to deal any better with the hitting out stuff.Still not sure how I can regain some limits .

But fair play to Ds,he's got some heavy commitments to change from his dad,which is more than anyone else has ever managed...

I don't think it's a good thing for DCs to think they can bolt from one house to another when things get sticky for them at one particular home. Going somewhere to cool off only works if both parents are on exactly the same page wrt discipline, otherwise the DCs go looking for sympathy from one parent when they think the other is being too mean. (Obviously if there's abuse of any kind, then the casual coming and going is not on). Sometimes the DCs themselves recognise that they feel more secure and happy with the parent who runs the tighter ship and communicates well.

PM, if your XH grows a backbone and since abuse wasn't a problem, maybe the DS's relationship with him should be encouraged, but it seems as if the stiffening of resolve will have to happen very quickly.

Mixed messages and shifting goalposts = whining that you are not doing what I want but I cannot make a reasonable argument because I am not reasonable.

PM, I think that you are dealing with the situation very well and being super strong. You, along with Grace, Dignified and others on this thread are inspirational.

Im all chuffed Dionne , thanks. . 18 months ago i used to post insane ranting messages about my Eh ie " Hes a fxxxxx stupid fat Bxxxxx pervert and hes ruined my ,nhow will i ever recover " wail , sob , ect. Someone once said " Dignified , i know your upset but i find your language deeply offensive ". Hehe.

Nothing to do with bullys or idiots , but have you all heard about HomeAcess ? Its a goverment grant to help low income familys get on line , i think the qualifying factors is low income and dcs of a certain age . I thought it was a load of bollocks but weve just got a brand new laptop completeley free !
Check it out , and be quick !

www.homeaccess.org.uk/

math- I agree.I cannot imagine him getting a move like that off the ground. The job part would be a huge challenge.But he has never taken so much time out for anyone else,so I hope DS will feel loved - nd noticed- and that this will help him.

Dione Aw thanks! I've only been here since February, and without the inspiration and support of everyone on [the predecessors to]this thread, I would still be wondering how I could help my xp to stop being an abusive narc through my special love!

Thanks for the link ,dignified!