I'm a loving Dad who needs a female perspective!

[MadDaddy]

I've just signed up to mumsnet out of shear desperation (no jokes!) - DW and I have been having some problems recently and I could do with a female point of view! Bit nervous about the response you might give me... be kind!

I love my DW endlessly and would never consider having an affair, or leaving her, but we're struggling with increasingly differing sex drives. Most of the time I can cope with it ok, but at times the lack of intimacy between us makes me feel so lonely it feels like I'm being ripped apart.

I've tried talking to her about it but it never goes well and more often than not ends up with one, or both of us, in tears.

I could sit here for hours psychoanalysing the situation but figure it'd be better for me to just try and answer your questions and comment on your ideas as and when you post them.

Please help - just feeling low.

I realise it is very difficult to phrase any conversation with her about this without it sounding like you are getting at her, and having been very tired and undersexed with young children, I remember how hard it was to not take overtures from DH as yet one more things someone needed from me.

Having said that I DID realise we missing a very happy, fun, important part of our relationship and I did want it back, I just hugely lack motivation, because I was knackered.

Why dont YOU suggest a no sex month to her? Tell her you hate feeling that you are pressuring her and that you would like to remove the stress and just say no sex for 4 weeks - but , if she wants, keep the kissing and cuddling. At the end of that have a non emotional chat about it all. Meanwhile really look at how much she is doing, if she gets enough time out to relax properly etc. You will be able to do nice intimate things for her without her feeling worried you are leading somewhere.

"it was my job to do washing-up, DIY and making the effort in bed."

do you make the effort in bed? It may sound like a silly question but one of my pet hates is not feeling like an effort is being made to get me in the mood IYSWIM.

OP, you sound like a very nice guy and a devoted and loving DH.

Having said that, are you sure you're doing your fair share around the house? If you read some of the other threads on MN, you'll find that a lot of men underestimate just how much has to be done, imagine there's a washing and ironing fairy, don't see piles of dishes/dirty clothes/toys etc.

how did you do it myredcardigan? what did you say/do?

I am suggesting that you articulate the fact it is a no sex time by the way, rather than just backing off, in case she starts to worry you are giving up on her,or turning away. She knows you equate sex with showing affection so if you just stop that may play on her mind as well. Maybe let her set a time limit (might be less than 4 weeks!).

I remember a really sad article I once read by a guy who wrote about the end of his marriage. In the last months, he felt that his wife had decided that she should have sex with him not less than once a month (or something like that) and he could feel when she was deciding it was 'time' and 'giving him what he wanted'. She would watch anything on telly rather than spend time with him; he felt rejected for the cast of dodgy TV movies from 1988. He wrote about the pain of loneliness so well.

Having said that, yes, once or twice a week for a couple with 2 children under five sounds, i'm afraid, a pretty hot schedule from my perspective!

We tried doing that 'sex every day' thing that some woman was all over the papers advocating a couple of years ago. In fact, we tried it two separate times, and each time got to 4 days and I went on strike... not very honestly, I just refused to go to bed. The idea of it was to remove the decision-making pressure of it - the low libido partner becomes the decisionmaker/gatekeeper and that does feel like yet another responsibility on top of the children. The brutal truth for me is that sex does not mean orgasms (at the moment, for either of us), and good, pleasurable sex is random - sometimes it happens, sometimes having sex is not pleasurable enough to be distracting, and I have to spend the whole time fighting off all the unpleasant thoughts and worries in my mind. Telly or a book is a reliable distraction, I know if I am watching telly or reading I won't have to think. Sex requires me to think and pay attention, and when it is bad or boring, the thoughts get darker and darker - i feel less and less worthwhile, and start chasing good feelings, sometimes by doing stuff I'd rather not do, and sometimes by getting intensely angry,which makes me even more miserable and I end up finishing pretty abruptly and then feeling even worse. DH of course knows and loves me, and wants loving intimacy rather than any kind of sacrificial sex, so e.g. giving him a BJ when I don't really want to but want to do something less intimate than intercourse, is not satisfying to him.

Well, this is a muse rather than a helpful post. But I think for the lower libidoed partner, it gets more and more complicated, and surrounded with more and more issues, whereas for the high libidoed, it gets simpler; sex feels wonderful, it is the most intimate and private thing you can do with your beloved, we're both tired and fed up, it would make us feel better, why aren't we doing it now??

I don't really know the answer. I do agree that to say 'it's your problem' is not helpful. I would also counsel hope in that you really are in a tough place age-of-children wise, and that things are very likely to improve.

Coolfonz- Firstly, I saw a Dr and started some ADs. I also cut my working hours down from 4days to 2days. However, crucially, instead of doing less around the house, DH did more. He also worked from home on one of the days I was at home. It sounds silly, but just having him there made a difference.

He took on bathing and bedtime routine 5 nights a week on the one condition that I used this hour or so to either go to the gym (this always helped my mood) or have a pedicure or massage or something at the village salon.

It sounds silly but one of the biggest help was that he took on the 'thinking' for a few months. By that I mean, he made sure they had clean uniform, that their shoes fitted, that they saw the dentist, that the had £1 for mufty day etc.

For a few months I didn't really have to think about much other than myself. This sounds very selfish and I know I'm very lucky that it was possible but it was just what I needed and 2yrs on things are great and I will always appreciate what he did for me.

I do think the 'no sex month' is a very good idea as long as you tell her that's what you're doing. What almost always happens when there is a major libido mismatch is that the partner who wants sex asks more and more often, the partner who doesn't refuses more and more often as s/he feels under so much pressure and starts avoiding any kind of contact such as hugging or kissing or affectionate touch in case it's interepreted as a prelude to sex, so the high-libido partner feels even more rejected and tries even harder to initiate touch/cuddles...
when you take the pressure off for a while then you get time to think and this can help a lot.

myredcardigan- ohmygod the bliss of having someone doing the thinking for you! You have a very perceptive DH.

You sound like a very thoughtful hb. It would be useful to have your wife's perspective - why for instance is it your job to "mak[e] the effort in bed"?

I might have misinterpreted....but is she saying the entire success of your sex life rests on your shoulders because you want it more?

Yes, I know how lucky I am. He's in the States at the moment which is why I'm up so late as I was just talking to him.

The 'thinking' thing was crucial for me. I think having had 3 children in 5yrs, losing both parents and moving house had just overloaded me and I was basically a bit zombie-like. I just needed not to have to look after anyone or think about anyone else's needs as that seemed all I had been doing for the past 5yrs. Tbh, it was a bit indulgent and DH encouraged this but it really did help. I think had we not done something it would have either ended in divorce or me having a nervous breakdown. Thankfully, DH was amazing and pulled me through.

I'm actually crying now, thinking about how awful it was and how wonderful he is.

I know I know it's not done, but to you MRC

The thinking is the thing that clouds my mind most- planning the menus, grocery shopping (even online), making the lunches, organsising uniforms and having a mental map of the fridge and laundry.

I'd love a holiday from that tbh.

No advice for you OP except that you should play some poker with your DW - or monopoly as someone very very wisely said earlier.

What do you do together that isn't about dating or going somewhere for a dirty weekend?
Do you laugh together? play a game of ping pong on the dining table.

Sounds like you need to make friends with your DW and get to know her as a person, not just as this amazing woman you are blessed to be married to blah blah blah TBH.

Whatever you do, don't stop trying. I had a low sex drive when DH didn't and then when I got mine back he'd stopped trying.

I had a very very sheltered upbringing, only ever slept with one other person and that was when I was 21 and very much as a result of pressure from my then BF.

TBH I just don't know how to come on to DH. Feels very awkward and unnatural when I try. I either felt silly or that I was doing something bad. But I persevered. And while I'm still not great at it, it is a bit easier. Except of course now my body issues get in the way. To everyone, I appear very confident, but usually it is just a front.

And no my confidence issues are not something I'll easily admit to DH. Have tried in the past but just didn't come out right.

God, women are complicated, aren't they?

And I thought I had problems...! You lot are lovely! Thanks for being so open and supportive! I know that several people have asked what I actually do around the house so here's an honest appraisal of the last week:

Washing up for all meals
Help with cooking 3 days (think sous chef!)
Clean and dust the house twice (but one of those times was a bit superficial!)
Make the beds every day
Groom the dog
Walk the dog 2 or 3 times a day
Load, run and unload the dishwasher whenever it needs doing
Put the kids to bed 3 or 4 times
Get the kids up 6 times
Do one load of washing a day on average and hang it out / bring it in (although I don't tend to put it away)
Mow both lawns
Give a foot rub and back rub (both about 30 min in length).

I hope that's enough! I'm trying to keep it up but it depends on how busy work is really.

Deep breath.

I hope this isn't too personal for DW (or too kinky for you!) but I think it's fair to say that her favourite fantasy involves being dominated. TBH, I think she'd agree that that's the only thing that really turns her on and I'm sure that that's why she doesn't want to go to marriage counselling. It also leads to many of our problems because on the one hand she wants me to take the lead, and on the other hand I don't want to get turned down.

So what am I going to do?

Basically more of the same for the next couple of months. I'm going to try and put the kids to bed more often and I may yet get us on the waiting list with relate. I do at least feel that I'm not abnormal wanting more than I get (or getting what I get!) and that there is hope that things will improve.

I think DW would see me suggesting a month off as me trying to deny her the bit that she likes - I'm confident that she's satisfied with what we have. I'm more tempted to turn the telly off for a month!

What do you think?

Well I have to say if You're really being honest about all the stuff you say you do on a regular basis - if she doesn't want you I'll have you! What hours do you work? If its really true, then I'm not sure she can be just tired - sounds a lot like depression to me and that she may be unhappy about something other than what you think. I'm in the process of leaving my husband right now and he never did half of what you say you do! And he wonders why I've gone completely off sex! I think you would be better off trying to get her to talk to someone - it might not even need you to be there to start with.

wow you do sound as though you do a lot at home! Its great that you share so much of the house workload.

A quick thing about relate - you said you weren't sure how you'd fit in the time/babysitting - they do telephone counselling which sounds odd but really works well - you have the same person every week and sit together with a phone on loudspeaker between you. You could do evenings when the TV is off! I love the fact there is no travelling because it means we're not rushing off back to work/home afterwards so we often lie together and continue chatting, or go for a quick coffee if the kids are with friends.

TV/laptops on knees/blackberrys all major passion killers for me - whereas kids being sorted, wine in fridge, bath run for me all work wonders.

Gosh MadDaddy, do you have time to go to work?

You say you walk the dog 2 -3 times per day. Could you entice your wife to come with you?

How much do they two of you do together as a couple? Cinema? Meal out? Concerts?

Does she do any activities on her own? Interests? (I know it is hard for women in particular to start cultivating own interests with young children)

I go to exercise classes twice a week, and my husband stays home and take our kids on their activities (they are 8 and 5, and both go to football practice, the 8 year old also go to tae kwon do) on those days. My husband and I also have a baby sitter once a week where we attend salsa classes. My dh is also volunteering for the local mountain rescue team, and we do a few mountain hikes a week with or without the kids. We have found a very good balance of "my activites", "your activities" and "our activities". Though, I must say, I do all the cooking and clearing up and 90 % of all the chores. Dh takes the rubbish out. But he has also been busy sorting the garage and painting the house.

It sounds to me like you do a lot. What does your wife do? I am not thinking of chores, but it seems to me that she sounds really bored and tired. Could she be stuck in a rut? It is incredibly difficult to go from passive to active, especially as the body has gone through so much regards to pregnancy and childbirt, for some it is really hard to get back in to shape and be active.
You say she watches a lot of mind numbing tv. Do you think you could entice her out of the house?

We did a test last year. We moved into a new house, and we did not buy a tv. We spent 9 months without a tv, and we very rarely watch it now. We sometimes "fire up" the projector and watch Top Gear from the I player, or an old episode of Seinfeld on the wall. We have a spinning cycle, and we sometimes watch a movie while cycling.

I suppose it is too much to ask that your wife watches tv while cycling.....

I think you should try to encourage her to come with you walking the dog, take up an activity together, such as dance classes, or something to blow those old cobwebs away from her!

I should add: Make sure you both eat cod liver oil capsules. They have been found to work against depression, in addition to all the other health benefits.

TokyoTwist You just need to remember 3 things:

1. Be completely honest with each other and with yourself. Accept that some of his fantasies wont turn you on but that if you want him to go the extra mile for you, you'll have to go the extra mile for him! This may involve being a bit adventurous - be brave and if it doen't work, learn to laugh it off!

1. When you're turned on and looking at him, you only look at his best bits right? Well I am certain that he does the same. Even if you don't think they're your best bits, if he's looking at them they're turning him on - don't deny him that - let him look and enjoy turning him on!

1. Spend time turning him on and enjoy it. I'm sure that most blokes are just as complicated as their loving ladies and the best things take time! Putting it bluntly, keep him turned on for as long as possibly without letting him... er... you know! If he... er... 'does', tell him it's his turn to turn you on now and he'll soon be back for more!

I hope that wasn't over-stepping the mark, enable CAM messages and I'll send you more advice if you want it or let me know if you open a new thread! Be honest about what's worrying you, it'd be nice to help some of you in return!

Oooh! I forgot - I do the bins too!

Dance classes?!?! I have 3 left feet! And cod liver oil?! Both of us smelling of fish is supposed to help how exactly?!

I'g agree with QS - new activities that you can do together or seperately, but just something fun that isn't work, kids or house might help.

Also wanted to say quickly MD that I didn't mean after phone counselling we lie together in an about-to-have-sex way - nothing could be further from the reality! Counselling seems to mean, for us anyway, that we have LESS sex afterwards for a few days as one of us (H in our case), is 'smarting' from the comments, or upset/depressed about the things that have been raised during the session. So in the short term, my experience of counselling is that it can make things worse and certainly add tension to the relationship. But worth trying for the long term benefits.

Please try not to use so many exclamation marks. I mean this kindly.