Help me have a good relationship with my MIL or DH and I will split

[TheLastOfTheNappies]

I have posted before last year for the back story see first post here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/828190-Another-MIL-story

Basically an awful relationship with MIL - she caused such a horrible time after teh birth of my daughter and made everything about her. DH hasn't made things much better by discussing me/undermining me with his Mother just to avoid a confrontation with her.

The trouble is, I think it's effecting my mental health now. It's certainly effecting our relationship. There have been incidents since that first post that always take us back to where we were last september.

I am always expected to forgive and forget, to move on. But I can't do that anymore. I actually feel physically sick that my MIL is touching her, I want to limit as much contact with her as possible as I feel so wound up/tense/hysterical when she's with her. I didn't start off like this! Im not an overly over-protective mother. I don't go over and see them anymore, DH takes DD to them, but he complains that it's never long enough, not enough time, that she's cried (that's because she's anxious and mummy isn't there I expect, it's sensory overkill when she does visit)

It was her first birthday yesterday, today DH and his parents and other relatives/neighbours are having a little tea party for her. I'm not invited, it hasn't been mentioned. I know I don't see them at the moment, but I do feel odd that my child's having a party that I'm not part of. It's like they have always wanted me not to be there.

I'm sorry for this rambling post. I just think that DH and I are so close to splitting over this. He doesn't see anything that I cite as unreasonable, and not I know that I'm being unreasonable too. I just can't stop these feelings. I don't see how I can play happy families with this woman (which is what DH wants). He expects me to paint over everything. I suspect the whole situation has been made worse because he also believes his mother over me when she is outright lying.

How do I move on from this? How can I accept that she is my daughter's Grandmother? How do I make these relationships work?

TIA

It doesn't surprise me that he effectively ran away from everyone. He's more scared of her than you for definite. But he now has more to lose from you, than her and she knows it which is why she's making these vile and pathetic threats. Not the unconditional love of a caring grandma, eh?

It's good that he's making the right noises and in his heart knows he and MIL are in the wrong. But you have to get him to tell you what he wants to happen with his immediate family - i.e. you and DD - now and in the future. He needs to decide that bit for himself and then If he's serious about making things work you both need to head to relate to work through this stuff in order to get there. And then take the next steps from that point (sole counselling for him for e.g.). At least that independent third person will offer solutions for you both regards MIL - which won't come across as you being manipulative or unreasonable in his or MIL's eyes. Did you talk about any of this? It might be easier to get him to go to Relate than sole counselling to begin with - it could come across as you saying, this is all your fault go and fix yourself, rather than let's both of us make a go of it.

Not sure what else you said about divorce, but again, I wouldn't say too much until you've established what you both definitely want to happen and if he's willing to REALLY try to resolve this with some work. Threats aren't necessarily going to help, but at least he now knows you are seriously unhappy.

Poor you, you've had a rough old few days, so try and be kind to yourself tonight without making any major decisions.

I think he is trying hard.So many men have almost Oedipal relationships with their mothers at least yours sounds as if he is facing facts.You'll have to be very clear about conditions for his return[I dont think you really want divorce??].The first must be that you see his mum as a family unit[3 of you]or not at all.She may visit you by invitation.If your dh wants to visit his mum alone thats fine[nothing to do with your relationship].You and your dd will visit [and be visited by]your family whenever you want and he is very welcome to be part of these visits.Done fret about baby's new name for now.Fwiw I wouldn't mention any legal matters yet.
You take care-be strong.

Do you know where he's going to be staying? the last thing you want is him staying at MILs with her getting involved. Might be easier for him to sleep on the sofa surely? You aren't separated yet after all...

Then he should just have said stuff the party!!

And of course there would be not atmosphere if his mum behaved or if he had the balls to say OK, we´re off when her behaviour gets too much.

That´s the problem with ILs at yours-you can´t get rid!

To say< he couldn´t face you is IMO awful.
Like I said-tell his mum no party-then there is no "facing" you.

So she has threatened with disowning her granddaughter-he must see how manipulative that is.
he should call her bluff on that one!

I think with you mentioning divorce he might have an idea of how bad all this is for you, so maybe not a bad think.

Just to add-if she really would disown your daughter due to his actions, then she doesn´t really care about either of them, does she.

She´s not worth bothering about, taking into consideration or trying to have a relationship with.

HM - He will stay at a hotel tonight - I thinki that's best. I don't want to get stuck straight back into family life right now - we both need to think things through.

Re divorce - I just said that if nothing changed that I couldn't and wouldn't continue like this. That it wasn'thealthy for DD. He looked V shocked.I think really I've mentioned separation in the past, never actual divorce. And I do mean that. Regardless of what his Mother does, the way he has been treating me is unacceptable. I need him to know that and I think the mention of divorce showed him that.

I think that his eyes have been opened. He can see that MILs behaviour isn't normal - but he says that he finds it harder than I'll ever know to admit that about his own mother.

He has accepted all re his mother, him and DD - but doesn't really accept that there's anything wrong with him. He agreed readily to couples counselling but didn't like the idea of sole counselling, didn't think he needed it etc.

He did seem v sad. Not crying or manipulative but like all the wind had been knocked out of his sails.

I asked him if anything in our life would be an issue if MIL wasn't near and he said that no, most of the opinions he expressed were hers and that he was scared of not doing what she wanted re DD.

I accept that he's had a hard time of it, but I'm not sure I can stomach that he wanted what MIL wanted for DD over what wewanted as a couple....

"but I'm not sure I can stomach that he wanted what MIL wanted for DD over what we wanted as a couple.... "

Well, I think that sums it up & I hope you tell/told him this.

She can rant all she wants, but at the end of the day, what is she going to actually do if he doesn´t take your daughter around when she say, dress her in what MIL wants, send her to the school she wants....

She can´t do anything-except risk him finally getting p!ssed off with her.

Notice she has threatened to disown a baby but not him.

I think if he stands up to her she will back down-rather than lose him & your daughter.

He has to at least try.

Fair enough on the hotel front, that sounds better for you.

It just sounds so sad. It's great that he is admitting his MIL is in the wrong. Couples counselling will be a good start and may help him realise that he has more issues with his mother than he knows right now which he needs to address alone. I wouldn't push it on that front as I said. It's still early days.

It's no wonder you are angry, but I genuinely don't think he wanted what MIL wanted for DD over you - he just didn't have the skills (or balls frankly) to know how to deal with it. Sounds like he's had a lifetime of being under the thumb. It's hard for anyone to suddenly see that their mum isn't psychologically balanced.

Sorry if I'm sounding like I'm backing him up, I just think that there is so much back story to this that it won't be solved overnight. But trying to work through it (IMO) might be better for you and him than a lifetime of pain and anguish using your daughter as tug of war thanks to divorce. Maybe I'm wrong, and you obviously have to do what's right for you but if you have any doubts whatsoever about divorce maybe just give it one last crack of the whip. Can you get to Relate this week?

Bookmrking, in the car (notdriving). Well done & good luck, you are soooooooooo brave. I don't think I would have half your backbone. Hugs.

" most of the opinions he expressed were hers and that he was scared of not doing what she wanted re DD."

That is seriously screwed up.

"He says that he comes home and takes everything out on me because in his mind I'm the easier more maleable of the two."

If his mum winds him up so much, he should seriously consider having a break from her.

"will have to tell people that she doesn't have any grandchildren if he doesn't dox,y or z"

As you say, entirely her choice.

If your husband doesn´t do x,y or z, his mother need take no action on that, unless she decides to.

HM - I agree. I would love for him to prove that he's got what it takes. I do understand the psychological effect the pressure his Mum has put on him has had. What I don't understand is why he then had to put the same sort of pressure on me. The subtle put downs about my parenting, or the insinuation of threat of custody of DD. Maybe they're the actions of someone who is being bullied themselves bullying someone else?

I agree that I don't want to push him too far. Today, him staying away is about knowing that he can't think 'Nappies is a soft touch, this has happened before, I'm at home again now and I don't have to try'. It's also about me needing space to digest what he has said to me. Work out our next step. He still wants to meet with his parents, but next week now. NOt about our marriage but to sit down as a united front and tell MIL and FIL what is going to happen in the future.

I know how hard this would be if it were my family, so I can kind of understand this. Because of DHs work, we wouldn't be able to get to relate until mid September now - the fact he will be working away so much will give us space in itself.

Diddl - I did tell DH that. I can't understand how a man can be so caught up in what his Mother wants. There has been occasion when he has changed what DD is wearing to something MIL bought to take her over there so not far off! She used to shower DD with presents but as time has worn on and it's dawned on her she won't get her own way they stopped too. I think it was her way of showing DH what was going to happen.

DH said also that he thinks he's critical of my family as he's ashamed of his own and mine seem like they've pretty much got it sorted he's jealous.

Thanks Ruth - don't feel that strong and even though I'd relent and give in to DH staying,I know that it's not the best thing long term.

You speak much sense Diddl. I think he does need a break from his Mum. Probably a bit from me too. He can evaluate the situation with a bit of objectivity then.

You must have had a horrible day - hope you feel better later. Your MIL will of course say she will disown your DD - because she has no option but to up the anti. Narcisstic mothers have no concept of unconditional love, it is something they have never given. I bet your son had a rough childhood, constantly jumping through hoops to please her, and never feeling he had done quite good enough. She needs pointing out that she cannot disown something she doesn't have! Your daughter is just that - she is yours. Actually she is a little person in her own right, but whilst she is a child - she is the responsibility of you and hubby - grandmother can choose to "disown" her, what she actually means is that she will huff and puff and have a hissy fit and make everyone's life hell. This will cause FIL to plead, bargain and get snotty on her behalf, because he will cop a lot of the fallout. Let him. It is his decision to stay with her. Please continue to have your own space - hubby may, just may, be starting to realise that you are serious. He needs to be 100% certain and clear about what is so wrong with his relationship with his mother. And I think he needs to step back to do that. Remember, (and I'm not excusing him) but the poor guy has been conditioned by her to think her way of thinking is the only way, all his life. Stay strong. And let MIL go ballistic (she will) and please let it all wash over you. She is depending on a reaction - and will do anything to get it. Don't give her one, and she'll burn herself out.

SM - thanks - I do feel sorry for him, I really do. It can't be easy. I just feel that she was manipulating him so he in turn tried to manipulate me and it's not a healthy relationship to be in. Do you think having a narcissist mother would breed competitive parenting in a child? i.e the way DH is with DD? My amateur analysis would be that he's afraid of DD rejecting him?

I think every single thing you say seems absolutely right. It's just a shame you can't see relate before seeing PIL it might give you some strategies to cope with it together. You will need to be a united front whilst not actually telling them too much if you don't want to give them leverage and permission to involve themselves in your marriage disputes.

In many ways I wouldn't grace it with an announcement visit or discussion. Surely a phonecall from DH to say that you'll have a visit once a week all together from now on? They do't need to know any more. It doesn't need any input from their side does it? And that way you won't get dragged into any response that MIL is bound to make. Just turn up smiling etc.

It's good that you'll have lots of space as you say, but you don't want to lose the momentum of now in terms of his willingness to go to relate/face his mother etc. Is there really no way he can take a little time from wokr for one hour?

Well done, Nappies.

Having any contact with Mil will feed her need for drama. Do you think you can refuse to see her for the forseeable future?

It could well be that your husband feels competitive - or just crushingly insecure. Or both.

Keep focussed on what you want and what is best for you. You do not need him to do anything; if his choices don't fit with what is right for you then be clear as to what the consequences of that will be. This has to be down to him to make the changes that he needs for his own well-being, and it may take an awful lot of unravelling for him.

Yes, I think that because your hubby has probably not had much if any experience of unconditional love, and has possibly always seen praise and love as something he has had to earn,this has made him compeitive with your daughter. It is really sad, and like you I do feel sorry for him, because his mother has been the major influence in his life, and her warped view, in his view, is the right one. But he's an adult now, and if he can genuinely accept that she is totally wrong, he can work things out. The trouble of course, is that he lacks guts and stuffing to stand up to her - because she of course has knocked that out of him, to suit herself. Your first step is to ensure he knows that you are not playing games, that you genuinely want things to work out, and that you love him and your daughter above all else. It isn't a competition. I think he needs lots of counselling, but he needs to want this, because he realises how damaged he is, not because he's paying lip service to it, to please you. Good luck.

I don´t think he´s strong enough to sit down & tell his parents how it will be tbh.
And I don´t mean that unkindly.

He is too involved imo & they will drag him back in.

I also don´t think it´s necessary-you do it by your actions of presenting a united front & leaving together at a time you both agreed beforehand-or sooner if things aren´t going well.

His taking it out on you is the "abused becoming the abuser"-what if he then extends that to your daughter?

Perhaps him working away will help a little, and you can try to discuss things at agreed times rather than it then occupying all the time you have.

But you have to get things strong between you before you even consider seeing his parents together.

And you know, if he gets on better with yours, well, so be it.

We always spent more time with mine as tbh, it was always more relaxed.

We were happier leaving the children there & my husband found them easier to get on with than his own.

What SugarPinkMouse says!

Yes, that´s it-you can take on MIL together, but while she has you divided she has the upper hand.

If he has to keep trying to earn her love by doing as she says it sadly for him is unlikely to ever happen.

If she really loves him she won´t risk losing him and your daughter.

"in his mind I'm the easier more maleable of the two."

That, in a nutshell, is why he feels he can bully you. Because he can.

You've done really well, and of course mentioning you were thinking of divorce was right, he needs to know you're serious. And he's definitely saying all the right things. I think though the fact he doesn't see why he would need to go to counselling rings alarm bells though. It's not just about his mother, and his weakness in dealing with her, it's about all his comments about how your DD won't want to call you when she's older, all his bullying, threatening to use your eating disorder to keep you from DD, the melodramatic hand on the latch to leave...these are all learned behaviours, but they are HIS behaviours now and he needs to take responsiblity for them. He can't just crawl back in and say "Oh woe is me Nappies, the scales have fallen from my eyes about what has happened, it was all my mother's fault she made me do it".

I would stay away from MIL until you KNOW that you really are going to be a united front. And definitely don't take DD with you. She will unleash every weapon she has at your H, hysterical crying and screaming, threats of disowning. I'd lay pretty good odds on some kind of health issue arriving during the meeting, palpatations or fainting or something like that. If you don't think your H can stand up to that, don't go.

Another thing I'd lay good odds on is her having disowned your DD by the time she's aout 5 anyway. She was able to manipulate your H as he was with her all the time, so his ideas of what normal relationships are were warped. You are the main influence on your DD though, and toddlers aren't tactful. If she finds MIL overbearing and trying to cuddle her or pester her she'll tell her to get off or go away. She might well correct her on using her old name as well. If MIL asks her who she loves best she'll probably say Mummy. Can imagine that kind of independent thinking going down like a ton of bricks TBH, and MIL won't accept not being in control.

How are you feeling now?