Recovery and moving on as the fog continues to lift.....

[pinemartina]

If I had found MN three years ago,I would have run from xp within a few months of meeting him.
But then I wouldn't have my beautiful baby dd who my dc and I dote on and adore.

The dc had a fantastic fortnight in the sun.Xh2 really enjoyed spending time with them all and became very fond of baby.We really appreciated having his company - and the extra help to carry etc.I got the opportunity to swim with the older dc.

People assumed we were a "conventional" family unit..It was easier not to correct anyone who assumed xh2 was baby's Dad - and unnecessary.I enjoyed the anonymity of appearing to be like most other holiday makers in the resort..

I had lots of time to sit in the shade,b'feeding or minding sleeping baby while xh2 and dc had fun .
Lots of thinking and processing.

We were in the same place where,a year ago,baby was conceived.Where xp was with us on what then seemed the perfect family holiday..
Lots of memories were referred to by dc ,both happy one's and stuff like - "imagine if xp heard/saw that..."......xh2 was not in the least offended at xp being discussed, in sad recollection or relief....we all took a while to get used to that....
I tried explaining to xh2 what things have been like ,but showing him threads here gave a clearer picture..(so he knows me here,now..)
Thank goodness for the internet cafe on site.I couldn't post,but reading helped when I slipped into self pity...
...which I did all too frequently...

I am in no doubt whatsoever that I am fortunate to have got off so lightly.I know xp was a very controlling narcissist and that over the past three years,I came to experience as normal,his extreme and vicious verbal attacks and emotional abuse.
I read almost identical descriptions on here every day.He is "textbook".

But despite my shame, embarrassment and anger at having been so taken in,and my certain knowledge that I would now spot another loser a mile off,I am ashamed to say that I still HURT like crazy and actually MISS the fake,fantasy man that I "loved".....
Despite determined distraction and thought -blocking,I wasted many hours on holiday,longing for the man I thought I used to know
I really identified with Elmtree's thread.I sincerely believed I had found "the one". I find it hard to imagine finding any man who I could feel so strongly about.Even though I've just had a baby,I miss the great sex...

I am interested when posters are advised to get real with regards to "romance".
Is it all fantasy,the soul mate stuff? Was I immature and unrealistic to fall for that?...to miss it and long for it?....

I realise,now,that I was on a pedestal.But at the time,that felt good.What is the healthy,real life version of such attention?My self esteem is pretty high,why do I miss the fake "grooming" of a controlling liar?

Because it is grooming,isn't it?
And it is very powerful and effective.
That's the head-fuck.

Whenever another woman,by posting here, begins to discover the reality and starts to come out of the fog,I am fascinated at how some of the most understanding and heartfelt advice is given by those who have had a similar experience.
And how sometimes ,it seems impossible for someone who has not been involved with one of these men,to understand and appreciate how the brainwashing really gets you.

Now,I am staying very deliberately and consciously in the present as much as I can.Enjoying the school holidays with my dc.Trying to re connect with the woman I used to be.Defining myself as a confident,strong proud single mum of 5.
I guess I have to grieve for the loss of what I thought I had and that this will take time.

Thank you to all the women who continue to support and share on here.
I am trying to build RL networks too, and would be glad to email/chat with anyone who would find it helpful.Please skype me if you want to.

pinemartini

Six and a half years on....... I still wobble. Not as much as I did but there are days when I question my own sanity for 'missing' XP, an appalling excuse for a human being.

I am now happily married to a wonderful man and have 2 beautiful DCs. My life is my own again and I now know where I belong. I am alive. I can breath.

I don't think that you can ever truly stop the 'emotions' and 'feelings' coming back. That part of your life history is still out of your control, sometimes.

It sounds as though you are 'getting there' though. I hope that you continue to move forward and re-build the woman you once knew.

Pinemartini - glad you had such a lovely time this year.

that you are still experiencing the headfuck but it can go on for ages and ages - mine was about 3 years, despite hating myself for staying in touch with the bastard, for answering his calls whenever he did phone (my excuse was that he owed me money - still does - and that I might get it back) and for still being affected by him.

I came to the conclusion that whatever it is they do roots itself deep inside your primal core - the need to be loved, the pleasure you get from being adored (even if interspersed with the most godawful treatment). Mine was mild in comparison with many examples I've seen on here - but still there was that "I've always thought you were the most wonderful person and wanted to be with you since I've known you and I can't believe how lucky I am that you want to be with me" type of thing - followed by a complete lack of behavioural back-up to the fine words!

Have you considered counselling for it? I found it helped me considerably, especially in that it identified why I was so drawn to that person and his drivel, and why I was still attached afterwards, despite the awfulness. It might be worth considering if you can afford it. Gave me some very useful insights into my whole life, not just that relationship.

(hmm,think I mean CAT...)

I may do some more counselling,but I have done lots of therapy over the years and considered myself pretty clued up about my "stuff".....

I'm really quite bothered by how intoxicating,exciting and "?addictive?" I found the alpha male stuff to be...I knew my dad was a controlling bully, I consciously avoided men like him.All my previous partners have been gentle,passive,easy going...

I know I believed I could "fix"/"tame" him..
I don't think I want to be dominated,..but I also don't want to be deferred to,to be in charge of everything,all the time.

Is it unhealthy to want to be "stood up to"? Does that mean I am bossy or a bully?

And what about the "tough,weathered,realman" stuff...I saw him as a hard man who was also not afraid of his feminine side,a poet with muscles....is that the shallow,superficial equivalent of wanting a woman who is supermodel/barbie?

I would be interested to hear about the kind of men others who have survived this have now found happiness with.

Pinemartin. Personally I don't buy into the soul mate stuff anymore. I used to and prior to this relationship I was in a pretty abusive one but I've been with my partner for roughly 19 years now.

He?s a nice, kind, decent, ordinary man. There?s nothing dramatic or heart breaking about him. He makes me laugh still. He works too hard, is very successful in his profession, loves his children and me a lot and is a good friend to his friends. He?s reliable, solid, loving and dependable.

I don?t know everything about him and I don?t want to. We are individuals outside our relationship. I respect his privacy and he respects mine. I like that fact that there are little bits of us that are unknown to each other still. We don?t do everything together and I don?t want us to morph into a unit too much.

We love each other very much but I?ve no doubt I could love someone else and he could too. I don?t take for granted that this is forever or that either of us will want to always remain faithful. Why would I? We change constantly, life and feelings change too ? thank god. Our relationship is an ongoing conversation really. It?s not set in stone.

I think the headfuck is the fairy tale rubbish that society spouts and it does start in fairy tales. Your idea of taming a man? Well, that?s what happens in Beauty and the Beast, you kiss a frog ? he becomes a prince if you sacrifice enough, The Little Mermaid?s love is unrequited and she cripples herself trying to achieve it. One day your prince will come etc, etc.

Most pop songs and every romantic comedy to many plays and books hold the construct of the exquisite dyad as the pinnacle of love. Many of the heroes like Mr Darcy are actually flawed, rigid, controlling and emotionally unavailable men. James Bond and Heathcliffe are dangerous, violent, narcissists/ psychopaths.

I think it?s a mad idea of love but very seductive as we?ve been brought up on it from birth. It?s a concept that suggests that I?m nothing without my man and only he can complete me. It suggests that I?m incomplete, unfinished in some way otherwise.

Actually, the reality is, I?m complete without my partner. I am all I need. I am my soul mate. I can only ever really rely on me and I am the only one who will ever really understand me and love me.

This doesn?t mean I don?t or can?t love, or want to be in a relationship. I love my partner a great deal. He?s a loving, gentle, caring, considerate, supportive, thoughtful man. We have children together, and been through a lot in life. I adore him most of the time and he pisses me off at other times and vice versa. But, I don?t expect him to be anything other than he is ?a flawed human who makes mistakes like me and I don?t expect him to fix me. That?s my job.

iso -thank you taking the time to write such an interesting post.

I agree with what you say about fairy tales and heroes and believed I had accepted all that long ago...but I guess I had only got there on an intellectual level.

I think I need to work on confronting how/why it has been/is so seductive for me.

Your relationship sounds very grown up and tender.I have huge respect and admiration for you.

I do enjoy my own company and don't feel incomplete without a man.But I think my abusive ex hooked and held me with "I TRULY UNDERSTAND YOU",much like Thumbwitch said.That's the part I think I have been feeling the loss of most.

That's where I have work to do before being anywhere near ready to explore another relationship.

"Actually, the reality is, I?m complete without my partner. I am all I need. I am my soul mate. I can only ever really rely on me and I am the only one who will ever really understand me and love me."

Thank you for that , especially.A powerful affirmation.I think we should be teaching our dd's this and making sure fairy stories are delivered with a heavy doe of irony.

dose

Oh Pinemartin. I remember that too. I do get the loss of the "truly undstands you" bit. With my ex, I felt like I'd come home. It was like taking of a corset and being able to breathe. I felt safe, held - loved. He listened to me, was tender, caring, loving. Yes, he did finish my sentences at times. That's part of what made it all so difficult to walk away from.

I wanted that man back. Not the abusive one who I was really in relationship with. I felt for you in your earlier post. You're grieving and it'll take time I know.

You know, I think my ex did truely understand a part of me. He was seductive and protective but not in a way where I felt anything less than equal at the beginning. I curled up into him emotionally and finally let go. I think he understood my damage if you like and hence, how to manipulate it.

I totally believed we had something special, different to everyone else. I didn't think I could feel love like it.

My ex knew I yearned to feel special. What I didn't see so clearly at the time was he was very like my dad (in the dynamic between us rather than him being identical) so of course we fitted.

They were both abusive men and I felt completely at home. I knew how to work for love that I was never going to receive.

You know, all these years later and I still believe I understand him like others might not. May be you may feel that about your ex, maybe not. I don't think you go through that kind of relationship without that happening and so much of what happens isn't spoken about to others. These relationships mark you don't they.

But now, I don't think that understanding damage is the same as love. I went into therapy for a long time afterwards and still see somone when I need to. It really helped me see how I'd got to be in that situation and also my strengths and I survived it.

God, sorry. I keep calling you Pinemartin instead of Pinmartina. Keep seeing you as a bird in a tree.

iso- that is hugely validating,apart from the last 2 lines,I could have written all of your last post,every word.
But that also makes my heart sink....so much to let go of...

"You know, all these years later and I still believe I understand him like others might not."

I know that was a reality for him and me...what a powerful tie...yes,it is about the recognition of mutually comparable damage...very unhealthy,but so compelling..and I guess,with no place in any healthy relationship,since it stems from that unique warped bond we have as children to our abusive parent..
...I fear it it can't ever feel like "coming home" again...and of course,since my home was such an abusive environment,obviously the trick is not to want to go there at all!

So,understanding damage cannot be the same as love.But the burden is having been taught to work hopelessly for that "love" which will only be rationed out in the shape of aggression,bullying,controlling violence.

No,not love at all.But if no one ever taught you any different at the start....I spent hours as a child living in a fairy tale fantasy world inside my head,or writing stories.....no surprises there!

How did you learn to understand and recognise the "healthy" version of love? And how did you come to enjoy life without the seductive fantasy stuff?

I suppose it must be letting go,getting real and growing up??!!!

The funny thing is,re reading what I just wrote,I sound like a hopeless romantic ,when in fact ,I've always been seen as a fairly cynical realist!

at bird in a tree!

This is an interesting conversation! Thank you, all: I hope it continues for a looong time

Glad your holiday worked out as planned, PM. I know the 'thinking' can be painful, but also know it must be done. I'm feeling vulnerable right now, having spent the weekend with my extended dysfunctional family. I see them all together - so beautiful, so charming, lively and intelligent - and I feel as if I am the 'wrong' one. I'm the one in therapy; I'm the one who looks the least beautiful these days; I'm the one self-censoring in conversation and, no doubt, seeming awkward because of it. I want to feel a part of that enviable family - all the while, knowing the damage it inflicts on its members. I am sad and confused.

What you've said, above, is a very powerful point for me. That special understanding is ... understanding of the damage. I first realised this, properly, when thisishowifeel posted about her partner's support for her during her previous marriage. Reading her, I knew DP would go bad on her. To have that kind of empathy with a damaged soul, you must be equally damaged. For this reason, I will NEVER trust that 'soulmate' feeling again. It's the same reason why I want - and yet fear - to be close with my family again.

I've no way of knowing if this is the same for people of sounder emotional-psychological health. Perhaps not, but it will always be true for me. What a pity!

In answer to your question: yes, I do still miss my horrid Xs. I miss the easy friendship, and verbal sparring, with X#1. I miss the emotional & sexual intensity with X#2. I sometimes look them up on the interweb to find out what they're up to. Far less than I used to, though, so am hoping the urge will wear off entirely!

It's a strange 'journey'. I'm extremely grateful for all of you, here, who help me to remember I'm not alone and am not the 'wrong' one through the looking glass! My therapy's nearly come to an end; too soon, I feel. PM, your thinking now suggests it'd be a good time for you to re-start yours, and learn something new about yourself.

Thank you PM for this thread. And grace for making me cry. Crying is healing I believe.

This is obviously where I am. That link, bond, psychic cord, whatever is so very powerful. I know that I HAVE to call the solicitors and start proceedings. I don't know what is stopping me. Well, yes I do, it's this isn't it? And the fact that I KNOW this stuff now, in a way, makes it harder. If only he could SEE what I now see, we could get better together. I know PM had a similar "ideal scenario" running at one point.

And at the same time as possibly losing my mother for good. I have an instinct that this will be the case.
grace your description of being with family is so very familiar, self censorship...oh yes, being the "wrong one".

I have thought that having done the inner child therapy with such powerful effect wrt to my mother....to the point where I do not care whether she lives or dies, maybe if I squirrel away some time over the next few weeks to replicate the process, on my own wrt h, I will be able to make that mental leap in the same way. I can't even take my wedding ring off, and that is really frustrating, because I WANT to, want to be free. I don't want to ever be spoken to like that again, to have, as my RL friend so brilliantly puts it, "him twisting my melon man".

I just read Snow White to dd. She made me laugh because she said that snow white was a "der brain" for marrying someone she didn't know 'cos she'd been asleep. Brilliant!

This makes me feel sick . I am struggling so badly and so much resonates here.
And now I feel like I am the unbalanced one with mental issues that can't be in a stable relationship.
Oh it's so hard. It's been a year and I am a bit better, but far from OK.

for others but I am glad it isn't just me because I don't know how to do this. I am not 'fit for purpose'.

Mittz, have a big hug from me.

I have looked at your profile, and read some of your posts. I used to live in where you are, and totally understand about places being your "church. I had two there, one was Eccles Pike, and the other the edge in Lyme Park. You can see forever up there. It's like looking at my life from above. There's a perspective from there, and all the elements are small.

The thing thar continues to astonish me about all of this is how the same for everyone it is. The families we come from and the ones we create.

I take the role of "pattern breaker" very seriously.

You are an artist, that is such a gift to express this stuff. I write music/ songs. When I was in therapy, the thing that blew my mind was how my lyrics have always said it with such lucidity and clarity. The stuff from when I was twelve years old was the stuff I was talking to my therapist about decades later. I which I had realised sooner how very in touch with my own soul I have always been. Does that happen with your art?

Well there's a positive start to the week....talking about myself, not him, or them.

Keep posting everyone....these threads are such a massive source of, not just support, but pro active healing too.

xxx

I am slowly starting to realise some unhealthy aspects of my marriage and it does feel like a fog is starting to lift. I can't keep away from reading these threads and sometimes I recognise so much in people's posts, but on the other hand, I don't know, I feel like I am over-dramatising my life? I think what confuses me is that everyone has good points and bad points and life is a series of ups and downs. I can't work out which way round my life is.

Sometimes I want to post a massive thread detailing my marriage from the start and everything that I can remember so that everyone can read it and tell me what they see from a 3rd party perspective - but then that does seem a bit self-indulgent and also how do I know I am not manipulating what I am writing to elicit sympathy? I can try and write in as neutral a way as possible, but some days I find it hard to see the good things and then I focus only on the bad and that's surely manipulation, no? I don't know.

Iso - I loved your post earlier about bloody fairytales and their prominence (dominance?) in how society perceives love. And also about you being your soulmate. It's true, I think I need fixing, but I need to fix me, but I don't know how. Whenever I try to talk to dh about issues or things, either in our marriage or things worrying me individually, I don't know what happens. He likes solutions so he often focusses on one thing and then provides a solution and that's the problem solved, no need to discuss anymore, but for some reason I can't let it go, it churns round in my head for ages afterwards and I can't go on about it to him but he's solved the problem.

Thank you.. I think the problem is right now, my soul is depressed. That is sad I think.

Thisis..... crying is healing. But it sometimes feels too painful. I can't dry with anyone, only on my own mostly, and then I ache for someone to be there. In counselling I can't cry. I just talk. And then leave and often cry alone.

Emotional silence makes me feel sick and I am just waiting waiting... would rather be told how I am wrong than the waiting. I kept a letter from my Dad because it is proof otherwise it is all in my head and it is me that is unbalanced and I can't bear that.
I just want to be OK and 'normal'.
But I have to erase any texts from Ex because they make my mind swirl.

I think I am complete, and yet in pieces and weary of picking them up to put it all back together again.

He admired me most for being strong and not 'needing' anyone and took that away. It was what my Dad condemned me for. That I was unkind and heartless for being independent. And now I am scared and tired.

The fairy tale thing is right. But it does a disservice to men also, teaches them that they must be the rescuer, not equal but greater.

"The fairy tale thing is right. But it does a disservice to men also, teaches them that they must be the rescuer, not equal but greater".

Since my first post to pinemartini, I have lurked on this thread.

What I read now brings back memories of a diifferent sort. The early days of being with my very violent, abusive and cruel XP. Before he was any of those things.

He was my hero, he rescued me. He knew my history, he found out about me and my XP (DD's dad) and 'asked around' before courting me. Flowers, invites to dinner, chocolates, cards.

He used to sit outside my place of work and wait for me to finish so he could ask me out. He knew I was a single parent. He knew that DD's dad had cheated on me. He knew my sister, my mother, my life.

I had no idea just how much 'homework' he had done.

So the early days, when we were soulmates, after he rescued me from being a single mother, lonely, depressed, stuck in a rut etc....... were fantastic. I was so in love with this big strong man.

We clicked, we flowed together, we were so wrapped up in each other..... or so I thought.

Then my world fell apart.

After all this time, even now and after everything he did to me, I miss those early days...... I miss the man that I thought he was. I feel cheated that it didn't last. That the fairytale ending didn't happen.

But I have a wonderful husband and family so why do I? Why do I still feel this? Let down? Stupid? Duped? I feel guilty for letting XP into mine and DD's life. For letting her feel safe.

How do you forget the fairytale you never had? How do you stop the wobbles?

I should add that the 'homework' he did was something of a trait. It was part of the plan. It was part of his 'power' over me.

Knowing all about me and which buttons to press when the time came.

I have put this on another thread but he used to say 'first you fuck their body, then you fuck their mind'

IOnceWasMe, post your thread, seriously. It's not self-indulgent to try to gain clarity on your life, it's a responsibility to yourself and those around you. And the very fact that you are concerned not to be manipulative makes me think that you will succeed.

I miss the early days with my horrible ex. I used to visit him in his flat, and because he was never really unkind to me there (because he wasn't yet sure of me and knew I could so easily walk away), I still have such golden memories of it. All the places we had sex. How I used to lie on the bed and just watch him adoringly. His loving gaze. The cuddles, the talking, the laughter. The lovely food he used to cook for me. His body, his smell, his arms around me.

I still don't really regret that experience, no matter how sour it all went later on. It was only ever a dream, but for a little while it was a wonderful one.

NicknameTaken, I have been composing a history of my marriage in my email and it is so long! (I mean virtually novella length). I just don't know where to start, I don't know what to say. I don't want to leave anything out in case I leave out something important. I also feel incredibly disloyal towards dh and that by talking about it, I am talking about him behind his back (which in all fairness is what I am doing).

The thing is, I can recognise some of the stuff on here, but in our relationship, everything is so petty. He doesn't call me names and he has never hit me. It's just all the small, petty stuff, stuff that you would normally brush under the carpet (and which I have been doing) because you would feel so stupid about moaning about it to someone, but when it all adds up, it's like you become completely over-sensitive and you over-react to the slightest thing.

An example of what I mean.

Our washing machine broke and we waited a long time for the landlord to fix it (3 months but it is fixed now). This meant going to the laundrette. We have 2 small dc's (4 and 2) and obviously it is boring for them and stressful for me to entertain them in the laundrette while trying to do laundry. The laundrette closes at 8pm and you generally need to estimate minimum 1.5 hrs to guarantee a machine and get everything washed and dried. The amount of times I asked him if he could come home from work by 6pm so I could go to the laundrette to save having to drag the kids along. He would say that was fine, and then at 5pm would tell me that he couldn't make it (I would have to ring him and ask how long he would be to know whether I needed to get things ready or not). Thing is, at 5pm it would be too late to drag the children along as they would need supper, bathtime, settling for bed etc, rather than hanging around a laundrette waiting for me.

The last time this happened, dc1 had wet their bed on the Sunday night and he kept promising then not showing up on time until the Friday. Dc1 had to sleep in our bed each night (although often crawls in anyway!) Each day, I would say 'you know what, it's ok I can just take the children because we really need this done' and he would insist he would be back in time to do it and go on about how tired I was, and how I shouldn't drag the children along as I was only knackering myself out etc, so I would believe him and wait and he wouldn't turn up.

Our relationship seems to be filled with small petty things just like that. I think I could fill a book with it!

Mouseface's ex's line about "fucking with their minds" sounds like it might apply here.

I can see what you mean about it seeming like a small thing on the surface, but underneath it's either (a) a fundamental lack of respect and/or (b) gaslighting (try googling it - constantly wrongfooting you and making you think you're going made).

How does he behave if you confront him with any of this? He's the one telling you you're over-sensitive, I'll bet?

Some things that are worth doing - firstly, keep a diary. Look for the patterns. Secondly, read. Have a look at http://www.amazon.com/Gaslight-Effect-Survive-Manipulation-Control/dp/0767924452/ref=pd_cp_b_1 this

Don't be afraid to ask for opinions on Mumsnet. Individual acts are not always significant, but patterns are.

If a relationship is making you feel bad, you need to take a long, hard look at it.

Damn link. This

Yes he does - he tells me that I am over-sensitive and too emotional but that it is understandable because I am under a lot of stress. He likes a 'zen' attitude of being calm all the time and not letting things bother you and being philosophical about life etc. He can't stand it if I become too emotional or hysterical and hates it when I cry. I do try hard not to cry but I do tend let emotions rule me a bit (sometimes they do come rushing out) and if I am upset, sometimes I do feel like crying. If I cry then he cuts the conversation off saying that there is no point in discussing things while I am not calm and rational. Sometimes he uses my crying as a reason not to discuss things in the first place (even if I am not crying when I tell him we need to discuss something) saying there is no point because I'll get all upset and he doesn't want me to get upset.

We did go to couple counselling last summer (after I had been nagging him for 2 years - he doesn't believe there is anything wrong with our relationship and he counter-argues all the issues I have tried to discuss with him with reason and logic) but after a few sessions, it somehow seemed to turn round to focus on me and how stressed I am, so I ended up having stress counselling and the couple side of things fizzled out. We moved shortly after that so it didn't continue.

Thanks for that link - will google a bit about gaslighting. It's funny but what you say about wrong-footing - we do often get our wires crossed about who has said what. For important things (bills being paid etc) I actually have to email him as well as tell him in person so that I have physical proof if he denies that I have told him.

I also started keeping a diary a week ago - more of a way to vent things that keep churning round as I am finding that I focus more on that instead of other things (am currently doing my Master's and keep using precious childcare time thinking about things) so I find it useful to clear my head before working, but actually hopefully it will also be useful to spot any patterns.

iso - that is one the sanest breath-of-fresh-air posts I have read on MN. That is how I feel (most of the time - of course there are days when I want to kill him ).

Good luck, IOnce.