Recovery and moving on as the fog continues to lift.....

[pinemartina]

If I had found MN three years ago,I would have run from xp within a few months of meeting him.
But then I wouldn't have my beautiful baby dd who my dc and I dote on and adore.

The dc had a fantastic fortnight in the sun.Xh2 really enjoyed spending time with them all and became very fond of baby.We really appreciated having his company - and the extra help to carry etc.I got the opportunity to swim with the older dc.

People assumed we were a "conventional" family unit..It was easier not to correct anyone who assumed xh2 was baby's Dad - and unnecessary.I enjoyed the anonymity of appearing to be like most other holiday makers in the resort..

I had lots of time to sit in the shade,b'feeding or minding sleeping baby while xh2 and dc had fun .
Lots of thinking and processing.

We were in the same place where,a year ago,baby was conceived.Where xp was with us on what then seemed the perfect family holiday..
Lots of memories were referred to by dc ,both happy one's and stuff like - "imagine if xp heard/saw that..."......xh2 was not in the least offended at xp being discussed, in sad recollection or relief....we all took a while to get used to that....
I tried explaining to xh2 what things have been like ,but showing him threads here gave a clearer picture..(so he knows me here,now..)
Thank goodness for the internet cafe on site.I couldn't post,but reading helped when I slipped into self pity...
...which I did all too frequently...

I am in no doubt whatsoever that I am fortunate to have got off so lightly.I know xp was a very controlling narcissist and that over the past three years,I came to experience as normal,his extreme and vicious verbal attacks and emotional abuse.
I read almost identical descriptions on here every day.He is "textbook".

But despite my shame, embarrassment and anger at having been so taken in,and my certain knowledge that I would now spot another loser a mile off,I am ashamed to say that I still HURT like crazy and actually MISS the fake,fantasy man that I "loved".....
Despite determined distraction and thought -blocking,I wasted many hours on holiday,longing for the man I thought I used to know
I really identified with Elmtree's thread.I sincerely believed I had found "the one". I find it hard to imagine finding any man who I could feel so strongly about.Even though I've just had a baby,I miss the great sex...

I am interested when posters are advised to get real with regards to "romance".
Is it all fantasy,the soul mate stuff? Was I immature and unrealistic to fall for that?...to miss it and long for it?....

I realise,now,that I was on a pedestal.But at the time,that felt good.What is the healthy,real life version of such attention?My self esteem is pretty high,why do I miss the fake "grooming" of a controlling liar?

Because it is grooming,isn't it?
And it is very powerful and effective.
That's the head-fuck.

Whenever another woman,by posting here, begins to discover the reality and starts to come out of the fog,I am fascinated at how some of the most understanding and heartfelt advice is given by those who have had a similar experience.
And how sometimes ,it seems impossible for someone who has not been involved with one of these men,to understand and appreciate how the brainwashing really gets you.

Now,I am staying very deliberately and consciously in the present as much as I can.Enjoying the school holidays with my dc.Trying to re connect with the woman I used to be.Defining myself as a confident,strong proud single mum of 5.
I guess I have to grieve for the loss of what I thought I had and that this will take time.

Thank you to all the women who continue to support and share on here.
I am trying to build RL networks too, and would be glad to email/chat with anyone who would find it helpful.Please skype me if you want to.

'They were both abusive men and I felt completely at home.'

Yes, it feels normal doesn't it and that why so so many people don't walk away. Because the other stuff, the 'normality' doesn't fit. Because the roller coaster ride, however much you hate it is what you are used to.

There is a void. I both crave the silence I have in my head, but feel troubled by it.
And oh my god the fear that if I were to be with someone else it would all come crashing down and it is all really my fault for being impure and 'not right in the fucking head'. I couldn't bear to be with a good man and lose it through my own baggage and have to live with that.

You could bear it, Mittz It would be another milestone in your learning process! Many of those are sad (just used my final therapy session to grieve the "loss" of my family) but, if we know anything, we ought to know now the difference between 'healthy' sad and 'bad' sad.

My counsellor has urged me to write things down because even now I am off footed. Not to show him but just to give me clarity in my own mind.
Because as the self doubt floods in it destabilises anything I have achieved in my head.

I do know the difference between healthy sad and bad sad. I have had two brief relationships that were just not meant to be, but they were good men, balanced, kind.. It's ok thinking about them from time to time because it makes me understand 'normal' a bit more.

I really identify with PineMartina trying to reconnect with the woman she used to be.

And I was 'OK', or she was. Much of the same baggage, but I had my shell, and he took all the layers bit by bit and undermined them. Why would you do that to someone you love?
Don't you want them to fly, to grow, to become all that they can be?
Because in feeling secure in love it draws you together surely?

Take the wings of a bird and clip them so they can't fly away, then they to a certain extent, stop being that bird and are a mere shadow, a ghost.
Maybe that's it, to become solid again. To relearn all that gets eroded in time whilst trying to keep going in the here and now as well.

Since I have been seperated, not only am I reconnecting with me, but music too. He took that away from me with a vengeance.

I am hearing song lyrics and understanding so much more.

Chains...Tina Arena
Torn ...Natalie Imbruglia
Girls just wanna have fun....Name escapes for the moment.

The first two I can barely listen to as they are so close to the situation. It's a teenage thing to do, to use pop songs in this way. I am happy to do that as part of my inner child growth. That's what I need to be, discover the teenager I was never allowed to be.

I am going out with frinds on Saturday.....my musician friends who he won't believe exist, only on FB, and therefore not real. Oh they're real alright, and I love them all to bits. I recently discovered that one of my very talented keyboard playing girlfriends has gone through exactly this. She now spends her time swimming with sharks, jumping out of aeroplanes and catching up on having FUN! What a fantastic role model to have as a frind, already in my life.

I am so excited about reconnecting. I can see his face....hating it. Full of hatred.

Mittz, I think what shook me so much about the family weekend is that I used to fit in. The old me was all sparkly & pretty, high-voltage & high-energy. I am, rather as you described, a shadow by comparison (albeit a larger shadow!!) The riddle I have to solve is - now I'm aware of the downsides to all that, how much of it shall I reject? Maybe I won't be "sparkly & pretty" any more.

I don't know yet; I might choose not to. I do know I've rejected the value system that says one must be good-looking. Along with it, I'm rejecting the judgementalism that gives birth to our collective brand of wit. Plus the "try harder" mentality. So already, it seems, I'm choosing an easier way of life (it bloody doesn't feel easy right now, mind you!)

Even if anybody loved me before, the chances are they loved a construct: the one I tried hard to create The nasty Xs didn't love me - they preyed on me. My feeling that they knew the "real me" was spot on ... they knew my damage, better than I did, and they worked it.

thisis, isn't it bizarre to have seen so much hatred and yet still to have craved that person's love? Isn't it great to have a bit more sense these days?!

Have a brilliant time with your old pals - well done! I'm taking my inner child swimming tomorrow. The sharks will have to wait a while

Shit grace....are we related? Your family are mine!

My little sister drones on endlessly about the hardships of her rare beauty and the jealousy it arouses. She keeps a weight chart in her bathroom and weighs herself at the the same time everyday and keeps a note of it on the bathroom sill.

Oh and the wit! the political point scoring and one up manship.....and h does that too. I used to as well, until I seemed to find discussing the plants and birds in the garden far more interesting....I guess I was fake too. That was one of the hardest thing about my therapy, accepting that I was fake, damaged, and responsible.

Yes,I've rejected the "family humour" - the condescending,scorn and assumed superiority.I am now, apparently, "happy-clappy and nicey-nicey"...."living in cloud cuckoo land"....

Fine with me.They have never even noticed me as an adult woman,so I don't have to reject their definition.

So maybe,I am actually redefining the woman I used to be..?

For sure,I will have to let go of my belief in true love and soul mates and I think that is my challenge.

It is heartbreaking how powerful,how similar the headfuck- psychic-tie stuff is...
Mouseface,Mittz,Nickname,how are these men doing this? I so identify with those experiences of intense,early days before the nastiness kicks in.

Does being healthy mean never experiencing that again?
Or does hanging on to a desire for that kind of intense " romance" but with a healthy dynamic,stray into the realms of fetishism? - Is it romance role-play without the damage magnet?

Perhaps this song will resonate with some of you - I'd never really thought about the lyrics until I had a boyfriend like your Exes (although like IOnceWasMe, he wasn't "that bad" - just undermined, belittled me and made out I was the nutcase or that things were all my fault). Then when I heard it I thought "My God, that's what they do!"

Of course, it depends on how you define "blow your little mind" but I defined it as "blowing it apart".

I think, but warily, that much of this male behaviour is due to increased female independence. Many men still have very strong chauvinistic values, despite looking on the surface as though they don't. They like strong women because they are more of a "prize" if they can subjugate them, and intelligent women help to bolster their own world-image. Having a meek mousey woman is no good to them! They want one who started out feisty and educated, independent and strong - but only because it makes them look good. Outward appearances are more important to them than reality, than real love. So they take the lovely strong independent woman and they take her to bits, slowly and steadily, so that they never lose their prize - and they make sure that she maintains her outward image, if she doesn't then they get a new one for "show purposes" but keep the old one chained at home.
If at any point it looks as though they are going to lose her, it becomes imperative to destroy her public image, so that everything is her fault and not theirs. Hence the sly implications of mental imbalance, nervous breakdown, high maintenance, ruled by emotions, etc. etc. They look good for having "put up with her" for so long, what a hero! And how kind he is, to take on such a damaged person.

I can only say again - you have to remember, above all else, that they are all about image. The substance is a mean spirited little cockroach, who wants to bring everyone down to their own level or lower, to make themselves feel more important and bigger than they are.

It is up to you, but you could try reading a book called Lords and Ladies by Terry Pratchett. It obviously isn't a self-help book, it's a fantasy fiction about Elves/Fairies. The thing is, that Elves create glamour - so that everyone thinks they are wonderful and beautiful and must be good too because how could anything that beautiful be bad? But in fact they are nasty evil creatures with absolutely no feeling for other beings. They destroy because they enjoy it. Reminds me of these men that hurt all you lovely ladies so badly. And yet, you are left with the glamour, the fairy story, that makes you want it back.

Remember - fairies don't exist. And the nice side of these 'men' doesn't either - it's all a fantasy.

Good post Thumbwitch

The thing that struck me more than anything last week was just what a nasty, vindictive, venomous, judgemental, little jumped up gobshite my husband is. After five months without him, and surrounded by sane people it was stark.

I remember the fab stuff at the start, the presents, holidays, how to be a great dad books, the massive commute to see us every evening, the feeling of finally coming "home".

But actually if I am deadly honest, the nasty stuff started almost immediately. The glaring at me from the bar if I spoke to someone....the same glare as I saw last week when I struck up conversation with another family. The tantrums at conversations with my friends for what reason I still don't know. His utter hatred of forums, slowly undermining my work, his rage if a session over ran...his accusations of affairs with everyone, only using boy singers down the line so that no one ever came here. His hatred of all the new friends I've made here, through school...all of them nothing but bored housewives you know.

Like you PM if I had had MN then, I would have run for the hills. I remember one day, near the start, we met in the Trafford Centre, and as I watched him walk towards me I had a sense of dread, and the overwhelming urge to literally, physically run away. I couldn't understand it at all. But I can remember that instance, that moment and the strength of feeling as though it were right now.

My intuitive senses knew didn't they?

I looked at a video of us in the pool last week. I look fab, and fun, and I deserve SOOOO much better than that nasty little weasel.

My wedding ring has been off for nearly twenty four hours. He's coming to see DD today. I won't always be terrified I don't suppose.

I'm scared of not being able to cope alone, of not earning enough money, of being permanently exhausted and lonely. Of being a failiure

Well done for having taken it off, ThisIs! You obviously have great intuition - you need to listen to it more.

Remember this - you got out of a damaging relationship. You showed your DD that you are a strong woman who respects herself too much to accept such shoddy behaviour - you set her a great example. You have provided her with a level of security away from the abusive behaviour as well, as there is no guarantee that your H will continue to be lovely to her as she gets older. This makes you a successful mum. You will cope - you had the strength to get out, you will have the strength to cope, even if you have occasional 'off' days. You have done so well so far - you will continue to do so, honestly.

Do you know, I think that going to Cyprus, although difficult and upsetting, has brought him into such a sharp focus.

He has no idea that it is him. He really believes that it is the rest of the world.

That's the head fuck.....their heads are utterly fucked.

They are - BUT! beware of feeling remotely sorry for them. In the end, it doesn't matter why they are the way they are, it doesn't matter if they had bad childhoods, it doesn't matter if they are deluded to the point of mental illness - they are the way they are and they are happy with it. They are unfixable and they don't want to be fixed.

Mitz, lovely woman. Good men have baggage too you know, they just don't use you as an emotional or phsyical punchbag to deal with it or blame you for it.

I say this gently Mitz. Your assumption seems to be that anyone worthwhile you get involved with will be pure, sorted, clean in someway and therefore you'll just be the unclean, damaged and "a bit mad" woman and you'll be responsible for it all going horribly wrong.

I used to believe similar things about myself and I certainly spent the first couple of years with my partner acting it all out. It's not true though. Not really.

I wasn't damaged goods anymore than you. I wasn't mad just as you're not.

I'd just got used to being a receptacle that a lot of people in my family poured all their angry, sad and punishing feelings into. All the ones they couldn't handle. I became the bad object in the family, if you like. Then as a very young woman, I walked straight into the arms of a man who continued. No wonder I thought I was the mad one.

Actually, I was carrying around lots of other peoples mad or unexpressed feelings and emotions. They didn't all belong to me. I'd bet not all yours belong to you either.

Mitz, you've survived the best way you know how in life, it may not always make sense to you or always other people but it's effective and it's worked because you're alive and here.

That's so true....
In my inner child therapy it emerged very early on that I was a skip, a rubbish dump for everyone elses shit.

I too was carrying around other peoples intolerable emotions, and that's what h wants me to do too. I won't do it any more, I can't.

Imagine how stong someone must be to carry ALL that stuff around, as well as your own, and keep living?

Although I've nearly come a cropper a few times on that last point.

I think those of us on this thread who have carried the burdens of everyone around them, are stunningly strong. Imagine what you could do with that strength with real freedom?

"Imagine what you could do with that strength with real freedom?"

Thisis, yes you're right.

Pinemartina I'm not ignoring your questions to me, just trying to think how to answer meaningfully without it being a thesis!

I find this thread incredibly moving to read. You're all bright, strong and resilient women. I know it's hard to hold onto that sometimes but it's true.

More excellent stuff here !

thisis - I also remember a very early flash of intuition - actually sitting opposite him at breakfast in a B&B and watching a dark look come and go across his face as the man at the next table blew his nose..I remember quite clearly thinking "bad news,danger"...I listened to myself ,but pushed it away...deciding I was being too judgemental.And we had just had our first, INTENSELY passionate, night together...

I came to dread and fear that look appearing.

But to have acted on that intuition then,would have meant announcing that it wasn't working out to a man who,at that point ,was "the answer to all my prayers" (yuck at that now) and I was the same to him...we were in that loved up wonderful stage..the other stuff didn't emerge for a while.

It was a genuine insight.I really felt it,and remembered it many times later on.

To acknowledge and act upon it would have meant dismantling and losing the fairy tale - only I BELIEVED in it at that time.

So,is the only real protection ,the acceptance that, if something seems to be that wonderful,then it probably isn't,really?

thumbwitch I've never been a big Terry Pratchett fan,but I will read that book.

I am absolutely fascinated by all this right now.I feel like I am uncovering a real truth,that has held me all my life .Until now.

I know I 'm still hoping that I can hold onto some of that fairy tale belief,though.Even though the evidence is that this is what has been my downfall...

Thanks for the lyric,thumbwitch,and for your insights re female independence.I agree with what you say.

But where does it take relationships between men and women?

I mean,I consider myself a strong, independent woman.I always have.My parents still criticize me for being too strong and "manly" ...
I really do believe I can cope with anything,and have proved it to myself many times.
I am sure xp targeted me for just this reason,just as you say.

But I still got "swept of my feet".I certainly fell for the rescuer,the hero that time.If I reject the whole bit,what kind of man can/will I be attracted to?

No one for a long while ,for sure.But not sure what kind of relationship would do it for me if the whole romantic love stuff has to go - which it clearly does...does any of that make sense?

cross posted iso - started writing and went away in the middle!

.. am watching this thread with interest. So much resonates, as I realise that my last two significant relationships were very unhealthy and in effect abusive..

..and again, the signs were there, so very, very early in the relationship..

.. still nervous about things you all mention that I do not recongise though

• I have never felt like I have met my soul mate or anything close
• I never miss them once I have (finally) managed to leave them
• I may still have some self destructive tendendancies..

I did however, get trapped by an almost desparate need to 'fix' them, make them happy and simply resulted in hurting myself..but anyway lots of you who post regularly helped me identify something was terribly, terribly wrong gave me the strength to do something about it - although I never posted about the situation.. so thank you anyway - will watch this thread closely

pinemartina - the whole "swept me off my feet" whirlwind romance thing - look at it as though it were actually a tornado. It's not a good thing to be caught up in, you find it hard to breathe, never know which way is up and it could end up actually killing you.(a bit overdramatic at the end there but it does happen in serious DV cases)

The sort of relationship you want to look out for is a caring one. Not a "you are my goddess, I can't live without you, I'll give you everything you want" but a "I like who you are, I want to take care of you and help you be the best person you can be" sort of relationship. Someone who genuinely respects you. Excitement is all very well, but remember that the chemicals in the body that signify excitement are the same ones that create fear.

But, and I say this as one who has done it, I do strongly suggest that you go through counselling/ therapy and find yourself again before you try another relationship. Because for whatever reason, you had a sign on your head that attracted this abusive man - and you want to be sure it's gone before you get involved with anyone else. One thing that I found hugely beneficial (I'm probably repeating myself here ) was NLP - neuro-linguistic programming - literally brainwashing (washes out all the crap behaviours/habits and replaces them with shiny new ones). There is also a technique in NLP therapy that allows you to dejunk yourself of everyone else's crap - you get to give it back to them, place it where it belongs - so, all of you who feel like emotional skips, you can get rid of it.

I think it will change, because I think most women who go through this kind of treatment are doing their best to bring their own DSs up differently. There will be fewer of them as time goes by, I hope - more will be brought up to respect women properly and also to respect themselves, so that they don't feel the need to belittle others to feel big. Or I could be living in dreamland but I hope not.

Snowmama - you have "rescuer" issues - you need to recognise that you cannot rescue someone who doesn't want to be (most of them)

thumbwitch your early morning post about men choosing strong women then dismantling them sent goosebumps down me. That was me. How do you know this stuff ? I think of myself as reflective and quite self aware but didnt work that out until reading your post.

Thankyou. I think.

Cos it happened to me too, and because I have done some counselling training and probably because I am trained in NLP as well. But primarily I think because it happened to me too and I never thought it could or would - but it did. And the worst bit was I fell into the "rescuer" trap as well because I had known him for a long time, from quite a young age - and I knew what his family were like, in general and towards him - so I made excuse after excuse for him. It was amazing the lengths I could go to in order to put a positive spin on his behaviour! And embarrassing to realise how many of my friends must have thought "poor schmuck, what IS she doing?" Luckily for me none of them have really held it against me...

I did the rescuer bit ,too.In fact,I was actually quite attached to the idea that we were both sorting out our own issues together,as thisis remembers me saying in another post.

I guess he did have quite a lot of insight - he had been in therapy a while and had done some counselling training himself.We had some quite powerful"healthy" joint therapy sessions ,but then a really malignant one where the therapist failed to notice his verbal abuse and bullying.

I'm sure he still sees her and validates his current position,whatever he's decided it is.

Ultimately,although insightful into the damage done to him, and how it left him feeling,he was still a bully and utterly unwilling even to consider this the case.

He was a common or garden misogynist and a generation and a half older than me to boot,with or without his "stuff",it was always going to be impossible.

And of course none of it matters.
He was abusive.He didn't want to change.

So he brought back dd and wanted to talk.

He assures me that his therapist is real and specialist. I said that I still chose to not believe him.

He asked what he could do...I said, learn about gaslighting, where you learned it and then notice youself doing it and stop.

I suggested that if the therapist was indeed real, that he chose not to mention the fact that his "friends" had said that my facebook picture looked like a prostitute. That anyone who thought that photo looked like a prostitute must be insane, and that of the three people who would have seen it that he knows....none would have even noticed as they have far too much of their own lives going on. I suggested he is a liar and had made it all up. A normal husband if told that his wife looked like a prostitute, would take that person to task for being so offensive about his wife.

He said he felt like a stranger here. I said nothing.

He asked about France, I said I was not about to deny the kids their birthday presents.

It was all quite calm. Every time he tried to gaslight me, I just said...."gaslighting"

He went.

Great thread. I still can't get my head round why I knew so early on it was awful but didn't trust my intuition and leave.

But, on a positive note, today is my first anniversary of leaving him. It's been so mad and hard and I have learnt so many awful things about my childhood. But it's helped me understand why I got together with such a fuckwit. Most importantly, DD and I are free and happy.