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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

AF? Are you around? Could you come and slap me please?

151 replies

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 19/07/2010 16:41

and then maybe give me an un-MN un-Crunchy hug?

OP posts:
Mouseface · 20/07/2010 11:48

God what a mess.

Right. What do YOU want. Really, honestly in your heart of hearts want.

Until you know, you can't move forward. You need to get yorself together and then make plans.

Will you please do something for me today?

Will you please tell him you are unavailable for the next 'however long' as you need to think.

Every call, e-mail, text or show up from him is messing you up!

It's not fair of him to do this to you and you just need some time to gather your thoughts and decide what YOU want.

He has to respect that. I hope that he does.

cestlavielife · 20/07/2010 11:48

same with my exP - summers tend to show up (2007 was exception with april to sept huge down; but 2008, 2009, this year so far - summer "up" - almost i would say hypomanic... ) and improvement, fall he falls...

depression is cyclical right? people get depressed, recover - but then more at risk of getting depresed again....

but it is the rest...the plausible lies, the excuses, the promises.... then you getting into the controlling/honeymoon cycles...

i do get it - it looks easy at this juncture to think financially makes sense you revert to one place... but is it worth the risk? hold off for next six months, see if he manages the fall/autumn... if he really wants it to work he will be ok with that...

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 12:01

Mouse, that's a good question. Maybe what I want is something that isn't on offer. Truth, honesty, trust (tautology). This relationship, but with trust. How do you get that? I can't do it alone.

These things are so important to me. I once told him I would rather have a relationship without love than without trust.

I'll ask him to stop contacting me. I don't know if he will. I want to hear from him that he understands and "gets it".

Cestla, in some ways it was that pressure that was so tempting. We had both agreed that if he moved in then the next time I asked him to go we would go ahead with a divorce.

It was going to be all or nothing.

Although maybe that was just a hope too.

It is cyclical. He doesn't remember that I've heard all of these excuses before. All the promises and reassurances too.

They're just words. It's not that he doesn't mean them, it's that he doesn't know he already meant them and could still break that promise when the time came that he wanted to.

He promised not to drink again. I said it was his choice, that I wasn't going to pressure him one way or the other, but that he knew how I felt about it. I told him not to make a promise just for me, or one he wouldn't keep.

3 weeks ago we went out with some friends of his. He was offered a drink, and he took it. I said it was his choice. I was hurt.

He told me the next day that he took it (and a further 3 shots) because he thought I wanted him to drink.

Now when I asked him why that would be true he could only answer that I would never want him to drink. But he believed it when he did it, and didn't question the belief.

How do I combat that? He can create a delusion to justify whatever he wants, whenever he wants. If he can do that and won't question each and every decision then he will never stop this selfishness.

I'm feeling quite defeated.

I love him. He is a loving man. Caring, funny, intelligent. He can make me laugh like no one else can. But he can make me cry like that too.

Oh God, I really am a rambler today. Sorry

OP posts:
Mouseface · 20/07/2010 12:16

Shh. Not rambling, getting it all out. What happened yesterday has stirred this all up again and brought it smack bang to the front of your mind.

You need to write all of this down. Maybe then sit with him and show him. If he can't get it by you just telling him, maybe black and white will help.

You are going round and round in circles. Take a break. Go and do something and just switch off for a while.

I know you need to know he gets that you need space but ask him and then leave it. If he does stay away etc, he gets it.

You can't have a trusting relationship alone. But, he is in no position to give you that right now anyway.

He has to understand you and your feelings but doesn't. So, decide what YOU want, go right back to basics and start from there.

You clearly love him and want to be with him but with conditions. Trust being the main one. He has to earn that trust.

Small steps. Again.

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 12:47

He just emailed me. I haven't asked him to stop again yet. It basically says "But look how good things have been with me off them! Look how happy we've been! You don't have to be scared. I'll take them again if you want me to (even though I was worse on them, more selfish etc) but I'm better now. If you need that pretend saftey net then I'll take them, but I don't need them anymore"

I replied with rather a ranty email (bad me). He can't see that even now I've been making allowances for him because of his depression. If he's not depressed...

then he's just a selfish shit who doesn't give a crap about my feelings

or alternatively he's having a period of up, but is still ill, and isn't thinking clearly.

I can't trust him. I probably could learn to again, but I don't think that would be wise.

So what do I do now?

For the first time when I think of him I feel disgust

OP posts:
Mouseface · 20/07/2010 13:05

Exactly what I said for you to do.

Tell him to leave you alone. No more 'asking'.

He needs to understand that you need to work out what YOU want.

He's playing the sympathy card using the ADs as a weapon now. If he wants to take them, let him. If he doesn't, fine. As you say, this may be an 'up'.

Don't get drawn in, stand your ground. Emotional blackmail is a very unpleasent game.

You need time and you need space away from him to decide for yourself, not with him, what you want.

Start from there.

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 13:17

Ok, have taken DS2 to nursery. I'm back. Stronger and more together.

Will email him now telling him to stop contacting me and not to text or email until I contact him.

I'm a bit daft

Thanks for the patience Mouse.

OP posts:
cestlavielife · 20/07/2010 13:22

i dont think it has to be all or nothing - you can have a middle ground if that is what you want.

he lives elsewhere, when he is well you spend more time together,

when he falls again you wont pick him up - his mental health, his problem...

support from a distance...he will or won't get depressed again with or without you - it is not dependent on you... you are not responsible for his MH or not.

you can choose what sort of relationship to have with him...

he is tying you up with "i will take ADs for you..." also a line my exP has used "if that is what you want..."

no - he takes them for himself. if he doesnt he doesnt. it is for HIM not for you....

he drank "because he thought I wanted him to drink." ?????? he drinks because he wants to.

set boundaries.
decide what they are
stick to them

easier said than done...i know...

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 13:25

It's done. Short and to the point telling him i need time to think about what I want and not to call/write/text/email me until I get in touch with him.

I hope he respects that. I can understand him turning up last night. In the context of past problems he would run away and not come back. I know he is trying not to run away and to face things. This is very good, since he hates any confrontation and is more prone to sulking than sorting things. But I do need space and this is not a case of him letting me down by going, this is a case of me needing him to go for a while.

I just wanted to explain that.

He's historically gone down the route of complete avoidance rather than uncomfortable pressure.

Damnit I just want him to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because I've asked him to.

Gah!

OP posts:
YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 13:27

cestla, x-post, but spookily similar subject.

You're right, we can have a middle ground. At least for now.

I don't think we've got any other sensible choice if we want to be together TBH

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 20/07/2010 13:28

Glad you are feeling slightly better, crunchy

Some sterling advice from the ladeez above

You really are going round and round in circles and he sounds like the textbook version of passive aggression. Does depressin make you act that way ? I don't know really...I suspect that is a character flaw inbuilt with him.

The combination of a PA and a PP (people pleaser...you ??) is a difficult one fraught with some major dead-ends, tbh

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 13:36

You may be right AF. He's always been PA, but it was always a background irritation and not a dominant personality flaw. When he got the depression it came to the fore and he started dealing with everything in a PA way.

He went to counseling, the counselor taught him to get in touch with his anger. She neglected to teach him any anger management techniques at all. So there I was being screamed at for nothing. And there she was praising him for making such good progress.

It was because of the anger I first asked him to move out a year and a half ago. But that was just to a friend's house and he only stayed there a month before his mate kicked him out for having no respect for his home.

What can I do to stop being a PP? The more I think about it, the more I think I am.

First time I went to counseling I told her I was feeling much better in the second session because I wanted her to feel like she was good at her job Yup, I am a mentalist. That is idiotic.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 20/07/2010 14:02

Crunchy, I had to have a wry little laugh at your last paragraph. And then I had to scratch my head and rub my face very hard

From your posts, I do get the feeling though that you are coming to some sort of realisation (heels dragging like fuck all the way...) that you are going to have to please yourself

swallowedAfly · 20/07/2010 14:03

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cestlavielife · 20/07/2010 14:08

good post from SAF.....

nothing wrong per se with being a people pleaseer - has to be better than a passive agressive right?

but = one has to amke sure that pleasing others donest stop you considering yourself...i think! (i remember my cousnellor used to say : "but what about you?" it made me think....)

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 14:15

Thanks SAF, that's very useful info. You're right about him having a lot invested in "being better", he's done this before and when the bubble burst it was not pretty (and obviously it was all my fault because everything was back then). I'm not happy with being the reason he does anything. It's so childish.

I don't think he'll ever manage his illness. As far as he's concerned he equates taking ADs with being ill, therefore not taking them means he's better

Not rational thinking for a (normally) very rational man.

I've just reread that bit about brain reallignment. That's exactly what he's been saying about how great he feels. About how much better he is not being on them

There is no way that he'll stay better come August. He's got half the symptoms now, he just feels happier.

The two months will be up in a week or two. Oh God. I don't want to be around for the fallout

Why didn't he go to his GP?! If he couldn't talk to me. We've got such a lovely one. He's so good and sensible and caring.

We're supposed to be going on holiday in a week. Our first one abroad with all the DCs. I saved. I've been looking forward to it.

What should I do about that? I can't go without him, we're visiting his family (they'll mostly be away).

OP posts:
YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 14:17

cest, me? I just want Johnny Depp. Could someone arrange that for me?

OP posts:
TotalChaos · 20/07/2010 14:27

the computer just ate my post - so shorter version - sounds like his attitude is a little dubious - re:taking ADs/drinking "because you want it", rather than taking responsibility for his choices and behaviour. now in the good times, when he is happy, things toddle along nicely - but when he feels down, it doesn't take much for the blame game/selfishness to rear it's head. So as the other ladies have said - take all the time in the world, and keep a safe distance in case the down side of the cycle plays itself out as previously.

In terms of holiday - I'ld say still go, but have a contingency plan in case he starts acting like an arse. Though I suspect he'll behave himself better around family anyway.

AnyFucker · 20/07/2010 14:31

Yes, go on holiday

I don't think a holiday will make or break this situation, tbh

only a shift in your perception is going to effect a good outcome here, cruncho

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 14:32

TC thanks, he is respectful and nice when happy, but then will break promises and lie when low.

That's not ok.

OP posts:
Mouseface · 20/07/2010 14:32

Yes, don't give up your holiday.

BUT (in big, fuck off, bold capitals).......

Make it beyond crystal clear that going on holiday is by no means the green light for a full on, back to how it used to be, relationship.

He MUST understand and accept that.

YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 14:35

Af sadly I think my perception has changed.

There're no excuses in my repertoire to rationalise away what he has done.

So I either accept it and forgive, or accept and don't.

I can't pretend he did this by accident, or forgot, or didn't know it would hurt me.

Deliberate, entitled behaviour that has consequences for this whole family.

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 20/07/2010 14:35

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YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch · 20/07/2010 14:37

Mouse, I will be clear and strict.

It'll give us a chance to talk without anything else going on.

And I can always just run off to the beach with a book and leave him with the DCs for the whole holiday

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 20/07/2010 14:39

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