Archers thread #169: Denise rocks the boat in more than one way! Will Chris find a message in a cider bottle? Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd have liked to have Harrison's behbe, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @LikeTalkingToLassie and @BrightYellowDaffodil for title inspiration. Is this the end for Denise and John? It does seem odd to introduce John now if he's going to disappear. He has a lovely voice.

Over to you!

It has just dawned on me that I am currently getting considerably more pleasure from following this thread than from actually listening to TA.

Unfortunately in order to continue understanding and enjoying the thread I think I will need to continue listening to TA.

It was a compare and contrast, wasn’t it? Alistare feeling he comes second to Paul in Denise’s heart and Paul feeling he now comes second to Alistare.

It was laboured and poorly-written as well as poorly-acted.

Calling Tracey a coffee cream was a very back-handed compliment. It reminded me of when my husband-to-be told me soon after we got together that I was like an old vase in a junk shop- been picked up and put down a few times as not to everyone’s taste. I wasn’t that pleased when he said it at the time; it’s now more than 20 years later and it still stings a bit. We are in the process of separating.

I only listen for the thread!!!

better writing, better humour, better knowledge

paul talking about his relationship with Denise was weird and I worry for whichever sw thinks that is normal

What a stupid and thoughtless thing to say to you.

I have felt more and more this week that Paul is quite unhinged.

I did too, I shouted so hard at the radio I didn’t hear the parking sensors going off. I’d have blamed Paul if I’d backed into a fence.

It was awfully telling though that Paul’s resentment comes from his perception of Alistair taking his place as Deux-Knees’ “go to”. It’s clear that - whatever his rose-tinted view of his parents’ marriage (which may well have been more like wishful thinking) - he and Deux-Knees have been very close. Alistair has usurped him in a far more “natural” relationship (not that I think there was anything unnatural, but a partner relationship is naturally closer than a mother and son) and he’s taken it very badly. I’ve thought for a while that Paul is very child-like which would explain a) the clinginess to his mother, b) his idealism and c) the indifferent relationship between Deux-Knees and John as she was clearly more invested in her child.

Give the loo a scrub with his toothbrush before he goes! What a dick.

I LOVE Jakob! He’s so fed up isn’t he? Paul needed to hear that, but I don’t know if it will have the effect we were hoping for (ie, stfu Paul). I’m not surprised he’s pissed off - I would be - but he’s very enmeshed with his mum in an odd way and really has overreacted. Interesting that he said his dad wasn’t easy to talk to - exactly why Dekneez got the ick!

Alistair is an intelligent man, it’s absolutely baffling that he can’t understand why Paul is upset. I’m still surprised that Jim and Jazzer are ok with it.

The episode was OK because Jim was in it.

Daft bugger probably thought he was being lyrical.

Liking BYD’s toothbrush suggestion

It doesn’t matter how much time the SW devote to it I’m still not even slightly invested in this storyline. I’m thinking of previous infidelities - Ruth and Sam, Sid and Jolene, Brian and Siobhan, Ed and Emmur - all fantastic plot drivers. I just don’t give too hoots what happens either way here. - and the entire episode was devoted to it. Paul feels like his mum has been unfaithful to him and so do I tbh because we don’t really know John. It’s a weird dynamic that Paul is working in such close collaboration with his mum. So many much more interesting furrows to plough in fact, come to think of it, ploughing a few furrows would be more interesting all round.

No it wasn't. It was dreadful.

I love Jakob you would always know where you stand with him.
I love coffee creams but not coffee much.
I love Richard E Grant his bio of when his wife was dying made me cry and im not a weepy person, I hope he is as nice in person, and love his posho voice.
The way Paul thinks of his mum is a bit creepy and to be honest its Denise's fault for encouraging that.
Dont know what Alistair see's in Denise either and how can it flourish if they dont see each other and why should they go out in public to show they are a couple and not ashamed talk about rubbing your cheated on ( which no matter how you look at it , its what they did) husband's nose in it. Glad they decided not to go out, but anyone popping into the vet will see them together.
Alice's actor does do a very good drunk.

I love Jakob - he's up there with Dylan in Casualty.

Alistair is weirdly needy and stupid at times. Remember when he was gambling? Wonder if Denise knows about that episode.

Paul wasn't saying that his dad was difficult to talk to but that it was obviously a difficult thing to try and talk to him about.

I love Jim.

and agree with pp saying Paul’s attitude towards his mother is unhealthily enmeshed. Very odd indeed.

That’s why they don’t actually live together

I love Jim - me too, but not even he could save that episode. Is Jim supposed to be Alistair's Paul? Denise won't stay with Alistair because he lives with Jim and Alistair is finding it hard to move the relationship on because of Denise's relationship with Paul. They both need to cut free of their family ties to move forward. I still don't care - I'm just trying to find some point to this endless nonsense.

I’m afraid there is no point other than the sw think they’re being jolly clever

Paul is Ambridge’s very own Norman Bates. There’s an extremely disturbing dynamic between him and Denise. I’m thinking back to her wailing inconsolably that she’s never felt so alone now he has fallen out with her. It’s really not normal. And I still need to understand why she has a different surname from the rest of her family.

It's not unusual for women to keep their own name when they marry.

Perhaps more unusual when Denise married? I can’t say I have much curiosity about the family and I really hope the daughter isn’t going to be introduced as well.

@Eastie77Returns , does there need to be a reason? I can think of a family where the DF, DC1 and DC2 have one surname, the DM has her own surname and DC3 has both parents' surnames double-barrelled.

I think the SW's did it because when Paul turned up he seemed a bit of an arse, and Alistair, as he was then, didn't take to him, not realising that he was Deux-Knees's son.

@Bruisername , Cara Mack is quite a name. Life is like a box of chocolates.

Yes agree it was most likely a plot device with no more thought put in than that!!

So on the hen do - they previously had a holiday cottage so I assume they were sleeping over. Are they no longer sleeping over or are they bedding down in hay bales?