Archers thread #169: Denise rocks the boat in more than one way! Will Chris find a message in a cider bottle? Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd have liked to have Harrison's behbe, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @LikeTalkingToLassie and @BrightYellowDaffodil for title inspiration. Is this the end for Denise and John? It does seem odd to introduce John now if he's going to disappear. He has a lovely voice.

Over to you!

I’m not sure Jill meant there were hen dos in her day - it was awkwardly phrased

IIRC she said something to the effect that the norm was for the bride to get together with female friends for a genteel sherry the night before. My recollection is that it wasn't even that, and mostly brides would be trying to get an early night before a busy day. Blokes had stag dos, women didn't bother with anything beyond, maybe, some sort of do at work - in my case a mass visit to a local restaurant for lunch.

Agree she just said - in my day it was a quiet sherry with the girls the night before your wedding.

Didnt refer to it as a hen do, just saying what her experience was before weddings when she was young. Possibly just having the bridesmaids round to discuss next days arrangements (possibly also to crow over their “bottom drawer”) and politely offering them a sherry from the decanter. Doubt they were swigging back the bottle Alice style, or anything representing a hen do as we now know it.

Me neither, but I do think Jill's personality transplant is fairly typical of people who live to a ripe old age (93 in Jill's case) - life seems to gradually shrink so their own immediate concerns are pushed to the forefront (understandably so as everyday tasks become more difficult and their horizons narrow) and having quite possibly spent a life caring for everyone else now need a bit of care themselves (which they might find hard to accept since it's such a reversal of the usual order). This seems to me more realistic than Jill continuing to run Brookfield, cooking for everyone and providing childcare for Rosie. Her voice sounds like that of a woman in her 90s - which she is! I too find it hard to believe that she would have had any sort of a hen do or that Lottie would want Jill at hers (or that Jill would want to go!) It sounds like a very strange sort of affair - what is essentially a pamper party - so a fairly intimate gathering - but with random tag-alongs like Stella and now Jill. Won't they all rattle around in the barn? I would have thought a couple of yurts at Spiritual Home might have been more the ticket. As always the other storylines just feel like so much padding around the real drama which is the slow implosion of George. Emma piling on the guilt this time, misreading her son's concern for Martha as being entirely altruistic, praising him for being so thoughtful, describing her own anguish when her mother was imprisoned, utterly oblivious to the fact she is making the situation much worse.

Agree but I think the whole Ben thing was out of character

The bride isn't Lottie.

Thanks @PedantScorner (aptly named) - you are quite right of course. It's Lottie's friend - which only makes it further removed from Stella and Jill. Do we even know the bride? No wonder I don't care.

The bride is Elena (I think) and has never been mentioned before this storyline, I don't think.

This is a very bad time for cold hearted snow globes to disable any of the predictive talents of this thread.

I’m more and more worried - so much careful build up, involving both Brookfield and Bridge Farm and a Horrobin - for a completely random and insignificant event? Something Bad Is Coming …

Ukrainian ‘Alina’ has just been invented, probably to give Pip and Stella something to fall out about. Which seems a bit of a waste of effort, unless Fat Rosie has been carried off by velociraptors and I missed it.

Something that really pissed me off last night was the notion that old women are fungible. Alina’s grandmothers can’t attend so slot in Jill, as it comes to much the same thing.😡

Agree - like having an old lady sitting in the corner ticks the box

I just hope Jill gets hammered and spoils the whole thing

Wasn't Jill horrible to Elizabeth over her abortion - or is my memory playing tricks?

The hen do needs something to perk it up and make it memorable, so perhaps the SW have it mind to kill Jill off when she chokes on a cup cake or is accidentally strangled by the belt on her personalised robe.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I have some beautiful Christmas baubles if their company might cheer the 🔮up a bit? They're very sparkly.

All this talk of the hen do reminds me exactly why I hate hen dos. Random attendees, ersatz "activities" and the organiser getting carried away with the idea of The Best Hen Do EVER.

<shudders>

Judging by reactions on this thread, it wouldn't necessarily be accidental

@LillianGish , Thanks. I couldn't remember the bride's name but thought it was something like Alina and that she was Ukrainian or something. This is probably a reflection on how gripping I find the storyline.

@Godesstobe - IIRC Jill was distinctly unsupportive - and Shula (who was struggling with conception) intimated that she could have taken the baby to bring up. Only Phil was kind to Elizabeth. (And Nigel, of course.)

Godesstobe
Wasn't Jill horrible to Elizabeth over her abortion - or is my memory playing tricks?

I think not so much horrible as desperately hurt about Elizabeth going off secretly to have an abortion, and quite unable to tell Elizabeth that she thought Elizabeth had done the right thing when that wasn't what she thought at all. I don't think her not approving of something she has never approved of, when it was Ben's possible child in question, was out of character, though the way she expressed the disapproval was.

And it does have to be said that Ben quite literally asked for it: he pretty-much sought her out and demanded that she tell him what she thought, presumably expecting support from her, and was badly upset when she told him that what she thought was that it was horrible and he had behaved badly. If you don't want to know what someone thinks, don't ask them, and don't expect comforting lies if they are a person you have always known to be truthful, might be what he should have taken away from that encounter.

I don’t know if Gnasher will be keen to have a sour-faced 90-year-old in a bath robe gracing her publicity pics. That’s not quite the vibe she is going for with her high-end events…

Weren’t they staying overnight in the delightful cottage? Otherwise (given the constant hints about the budget) you would think it might have occurred to Pip earlier that she could use the event barn.

The whole thing is unrealistic, you usually get your closest friends to organise the hen do (so I understand, didn’t bother with one myself!) and Pip hardly seems to know the bride. I agree with the poster above who suggested it’s just a device for Pippenstella to fall out over. It’s either going to end in a proposal or a break up. 🤮

It’s either going to end in a proposal or a break up. 🤮 A proposal immediately followed by a breakup.

I've never been to a hen do and fortunately it's unlikely I'll ever be invited to one now. Phew. We got married a million years ago with the absolute minimum of fuss, no stag do, no hen do. (As an aside, why hen and stag? They don't match.)

@LillianGish, what an astute and insightful description that was. Very reminiscent of my Mum, who was born in 1932. Patricia Greene was born in 1931 so is 93 this year, and Jill is supposed to be 94 this year (3rd October). She sounds even older than that. I'm sorry to say it, but I think retirement is long overdue. Her voice is not ageing as well as June Spencer's did.

(PS The 🔮is nothing to do with me! You want @BoreOfWhabylon.)

As an aside, why hen and stag? They don't match

I don't know why, and it is something that has mildly annoyed me in the past. I suppose neither hen and cock nor stag and doe sound great (the latter not quite as bad as the former). In their defence, hen and stag are much easier to say (although less descriptive) than the French equivalent: enterrement de vie de jeune fille/garçon: burial of the life of [a] young girl/boy. As long as we don't import the godawful 'bachelorette' from the US!

Thanks @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g. My own mum (86) has always been the most considerate undemanding person, always putting others first, but I notice as she gets older, less mobile and harder of hearing she is more likely to vocalise her own wishes which some members of the family take amiss. She no longer welcomes visitors turning up en mass, would much rather see us individually - much calmer, easier to hear and less disruptive to her routine which is increasingly precious to her. Can’t be doing with any sort of catering where once she loved to entertain, doesn’t want to go too far from home where she used to enjoy traveling and likes to sleep in her own bed. I am learning to tolerate all this because I can see her longevity is down to pacing herself. She has an active social life with people of her own age (who all operate at her pace), but has definitely developed some cantankerous characteristics that didn’t used to be there before. It’s probably time to think of retiring Jill as a character (including her in a random hen party seems a ludicrous way of bringing her into play), but I think when Jill and Peggy go we will feel a lack of scaffolding in The Archers (indeed I think we are already feeling it now) as the SWs haven’t really developed any strong planks to replace these stalwarts (including Jenny).

Interesting point - where are the matriarchs? Lilian possibly, although she’d reject that with a throaty laugh, no doubt.
Pat - nah. There’s nobody who really fits the Doris/Jill/Jenny role. Someone solid and reliable, always there with the kettle and some flapjacks and a word of advice.

Ohh I’ve missed Brian!