Archers thread #168: Near to the Maddening Crowd? Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to hear more of Harrison's strange little moaning noises, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @OverArmour for the title suggestion!

Over to you.

I don’t dislike Alice but I do hope she comes to a realisation that she needs to accept her behaviour rather than the self pity. Hopefully rehab will help

what I didn’t want was her being vindicated about the accident and almost using it as a basis of her alcoholism not being such a bad thing. Susans home truths about Martha will hopefully have out paid to that.

I also don’t think George is an evil person who deserves everything that can be thrown at him. Ultimately the best outcome of someone doing a bad thing is for them to truly understand why it was bad and atone for it. Not saying the law shouldn’t run its course but a reformed George Grundy is better than one who has spent a few years in jail and come out a worse person.

the way they seemed to be heading with misogynist George was a long time so where we would have a ‘nasty nick’ type character but this crash has brought it all to a head

Denise and Alistair are repulsive, surely the scriptwriters can't seriously want listeners to have sympathy for them. It's all so sordid. Denise doesn't seem to have an ounce of guilt, and her comments about not wanting to have to deal with all the serious stuff like telling her husband and Paul were awful, how about giving them some respect and telling them first and separating properly before going off to shag Alistair? They're a prime example of wanting to have their cake and eat it, I really hope it all comes tumbling down around their ears.

I'm very disappointed that Alastair's hydrophobia has resolved, it was such a promising storyline, but also, surely Arkwright Lake was a very public and obvious place for a grotesque boat-rocking dalliance, every dog walker, bird watcher, fisher person and postprandial stroller in the parish will have spotted them and dashed back to the Bull / Te Rum / Orangery / to compare gossip.

I don't think addiction makes you do awful things. Alcoholics are still responsible for making moral choices even when under the influence or desperate for a drink. Drunk Alice would still have known it was wrong to throw a brick through the shop window for example.

Addiction can and does make people do things they wouldn't otherwise do. When Alice has been at her worst she has also been drunk as well. She is hardly thinking clearly.

I'm not inclined to make any moral judgments about Alistair and Denise, given they they are fictional characters. However, they are both terminally dull characters and I spent the duration of that scene hoping they'd both drown.

My preferred solution to it would be for John (D's husband, not the dead one from Brookfield) to complain to Jim. Jim could then forget that he's an atheist and ask Shula to come and offer spiritual guidance to Alistair, who could throttle her (a convenient solution to the Judy Bennett retirement problem) and be imprisoned for life.

Shula's long-overdue demise would cause Kenton so much trauma that he would poison Denise, Jolene and Kenton would lose their licence and John (who sounds rather lovely) could then run The Bull with Fallon.

Have I missed anyone out?

When people say someone is a mean drunk I think well no, that person is mean. Perhaps they manage to to hide it when sober but what you see when they are drunk is who they really are. I don’t believe alcohol fundamentally changes your core personality.

Alice has shown herself to be a venomous individual and a vicious snob when under the influence (I have never forgotten her drunken comments to Ed about living in a mobile home a few years back). Also recall Nic’s funeral and the terrible things she said to Will.
That’s who she really is beneath the pleasant, charming, well-bred surface.

John was from Bridge Farm not Brookfield.
I ❤Alice

I think you're right. And, going back a bit, she wasn't very nice when Ruairi turned up, was she?

Thanks, @LikeTalkingToLassie - of course he was. Slip of the brain there!

It has to be said, Chris deserves better than her

Drunk Alice would still have known it was wrong to throw a brick through the shop window for example.

Exactly, and in the same way Drunk Alice would have known not to drive. Which is why Sober(ish) Alice knows she didn’t do it.

So presumably any inverted snob who is mean and vicious (or even a bit rude) deserves also to be set up for a serious crime they didn’t commit, go to jail and have their child taken from them?

Personally my preferred punishment for anyone being rude or superior in their snobbery (straight or inverted) is to pity their insecurity and perhaps point it out to them.

Whilst your psychological assessment and opinion on drunkenness is interesting, the CPS guidelines say …

“Intoxication, whether voluntary or involuntary, is not a defence per se. However, where a person is intoxicated through drink or drugs and commits a crime, the level of intoxication may be such as to prevent that person from forming the necessary mens rea of the crime”

definition of mens rea … the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime, as opposed to the action or conduct of the accused.

Hopefully CPS took a broader view on this and consulted experts with a breadth of experience and detailed understanding in this field?

What I'd like is for Alice to work out that George was driving, but for her to accept responsibility for the accident, and plead guilty anyway, and not tell anyone what really happened.

The plot ramifications could last years, and save us from more boring boat rocking mmm-ing.

Ive known people who are Angels but once they have a drink they turn in to monsters. You get happy drunks and then you get people who you have to walk on egg shells about when they have even just had a sniff of the wine cork.I knew someone who died from alcohol, no matter how much you tried to help.
I admit I dont like Alice I dont feel sorry for her, she is a spoilt rich kid and she was nasty before all this happened. I hope she gets chucked in jail if only because she must have been drinking around Martha and any thing could happen. Thats just me and Alice is a fictional character . No matter how much some people #Voxpop, likes to believe she is not and is a victim of what Im not sure.
I also think George is suffering in his way about his guilt, i wouldnt want ti be in his fictional shoes.

Addiction does make people selfish and go to extreme lengths to fulfil their addiction but underlying character also impacts behaviour. I think what stands out to me about Alice is that she is really horrible when drunk but when sober it is all about self loathing but it comes across in a self centred way. i think that’s part of the reason she split from Chris ultimately.

I think her getting back together with him would be a mistake because he is too soft on her and it would make it easier for her to relapse

I agree the worse thing for both Alice and Chris is for them to get back together.
Chris would have never left her it was Alice that said they should split and then plonked Martha on everybody like she has done again this time.

I offered an opinion of Alice’s personality. I didn’t suggest she deserves to be set up for a crime she didn’t commit or lose her child. I hope the truth about George comes out. As for Martha, I do think she would be better off living with Chris but mainly because he offers greater stability. I think if and when Alice recovers she will ask Chris to continue to be the resident parent for that very reason.

I didn’t write a psychological assessment either. I have a personal opinion based on my own experience of dealing with people who are extremely unpleasant or violent when drunk but later claim it was simply the alcohol talking.

I assume the CPS consults experts when deciding whether or not to go forward with a prosecution although it’s not unheard of for experts in any field to make mistakes.

I very much doubt that 'I was drunk' has been used successfully to defend a drink driving charge - not in the last half century, anyway.

Yes it’s a slippery slope - I didn’t rape her, I was drunk and thought it was consensual

i didnt rape her, she consented when she was drunk and doesn’t remember

I didn’t mean to kill the guy, I’m an angry drunk and I would never have punched him if sober

That doesn't make sense. She knew throwing a brick was wrong but did it anyway.

When/if Alice’s case comes to court there will be a lot of speculation about what happened. Fair enough - there were no witnesses to the crash, it is all supposition. We the listeners however do know what happened - no need to speculate on what Alice might or might not have done based on previous behaviour. She was unconscious, George drove the car, caused the crash and then moved her unconscious body into the driver’s seat to frame her. I can’t believe some people on here, knowing the facts, are trying argue Alice should go to prison anyway because she’s an alcoholic and they don’t like her. There are two material witnesses as far as I can see - Joy and Alistair who were in the shop when George bought the cider. I’m waiting for one or either of them (preferably Joy) to get wind of the cider bottle clue and point the finger at George who will then have to explain exactly how he came to be passing the bridge at that exact moment. Alice is innocent (however unpleasant she may have been along the way) and George is guilty (however nice and heroic he has been since the moment Mick’s car toppled into the Am) and we know it!

The 'in the same way' contradicts your argument.

Drunk Alice knew it was wrong to throw a brick but was too drunk to care that it was wrong. She wanted to lash out.
Drunk Alice had no intention of driving. She hadn't wanted to go home.

The 'in the same way' contradicts your argument.

I can’t for the life of me see how.

I also can’t see why childcare for Martha is suddenly such a massive problem if Alice had been working f/t. Ok, Chris would have to do more, but I can’t see why random Horrobin, etc, are being dragged in.

@RegimentalSturgeon , because Alice had the intention of throwing the brick, but no intention of driving.