Archers thread #168: Near to the Maddening Crowd? Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to hear more of Harrison's strange little moaning noises, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @OverArmour for the title suggestion!

Over to you.

She was unconscious, George drove the car, caused the crash ...

As they approached the bridge, Alice was conscious, or what passes for conscious when someone has drunk that much, speaking, and trying to open the door of a moving car so as to throw up. It was George's attempt to stop her opening the door that caused him to lose control. Yes, that was a bad judgment call. If I'd been driving, I would probably have let her fall out of the moving car and (ideally) into the river. But then I'm not a fan of Alice.

Yea
If this was real life and I knew Alice and this was happening I wouldnt want Alice to go to prison because she's an Alcoholic, but this is make believe and I think it would make a better story if she does go to jail instead of Chris coming on his white charger to save her. I also hope George gets punished in some way. But as the song goes "Its only make believe ".

Remind me what sort of car Alice has that George was so keen to drive?

Quite.

She retained some modicum of knowing what she was doing and choosing to do it.

As they approached the bridge, Alice was conscious, or what passes for conscious when someone has drunk that much, speaking, and trying to open the door of a moving car so as to throw up. It was George's attempt to stop her opening the door that caused him to lose control. And that would have been his mitigation if he had owned up there and then - along with the fact that he immediately dived into the river to save Fallon and Joy. She was unconscious when he moved her into the driving seat - otherwise he would have been better off opening the door and letting her get out and be found staggering about. I think it would make a better story if she does go to jail - I think a much better story will be the fall out when the truth emerges about George, who has been elevated to hero status by his family and many of the village (most of whom have not held back in vilifying Alice).

Presumably Chris now has to factor in nursery drop-offs and pick-ups that he didn’t have to do before. Previously he was able to fit in his work around the specific days he had her. I know someone (maybe Susan) reeled off quite a long list of family members who are pitching in but they all probably volunteered to help as they are aware Chris and his parents work FT and Martha’s maternal relatives are also busy (although Aunty Kate probably has more time than most) or in the case of Brian, not quite up to looking after a toddler all day.

I think it’s quite nice to hear Martha is spending time with her great aunty Tracy, uncle Ed, out on the farm tractor etc. I have a feeling she is going to need a great support system as she grows up..

Make believe?! MAKE BELIEVE?! How very dare you!

I do truly love the Grundy / Horrobin dynasty as an opposite to the Archers. And the fact the two clans are connected through Alice and the House of Aldridge.

But in a sense the Horrobin-Carters are now the central family. One branch entwined with Grundys, the other with (Archer)Aldridges. (As @LillianGish pointed out recently.) If only the SWs could match the quality of their clan building with believable dialogue and detail …

I don't like Alice because I don't think she is a very nice person drunk or sober but, as a matter of principle, I wouldn't want to see anyone go to prison for a crime they didn't commit.

But I don't want to see Alice feel vindicated when she finds out she wasn't driving or her whole family ganging up on George and seeing her as a completely innocent victim. She's a horrible drunk and has already put Martha's wellbeing second to her addiction.

Has there ever been any attempt to explain why Martha is an alcoholic? She hasn't suffered any major trauma has she? I know there was the revelation that Brian had been unfaithful to Jenny and fathered a child but, as far as I remember, Alice was already an adult then - or am I misremembering? Her maternal grandfather was an alcoholic and I know there is quite a strong genetic connection to the condition so perhaps she has inherited a propensity to addiction.

I do enjoy the way we all bring our individual personalities and life experiences to our interpretation of the characters. It could almost be real life ...

Has there ever been any attempt to explain why Martha is an alcoholic? She hasn't suffered any major trauma has she?

I think (assuming you mean Alice) she just partied hard to the point it became an addiction and not just fun.

Sorry yes, of course, that should be Alice.

Lots of people, including me, partied hard when young and I have never shown any addictive signs at all. I realised while abstaining during pregnancy that I really wasn't bothered whether I drank alcohol or not and these days I barely drink.
That's true for most of my friends and relatives. But a small number of people I knew did become alcoholics and it appears some people are definitely more at risk than others. That may be because they use alcohol or drugs to self medicate stress and anxiety or because they have a genetic predisposition (something to do with the ability to regulate serotonin I believe) or some other factor.

Or lack of moral fibre?

They keep reminding us, rather heavy-handedly, that Alcoholism is A Disease, but I suspect that at heart fewer people believe that than give lip-service to the tenet. Susan sure as hell doesn’t, and I don’t think Emma does either.

Sorry #Like, hope your not too upset by my spoiler. Later I will talk about Father Christmas and The Tooth Fairy. 😏

I don't personally think it's anything to do with a lack of moral fibre. I do think it's an illness and some people are more at risk than others.

I think it’s due at least partly to genetics rather than a lack of willpower or moral fibre.

My paternal grandfather was an alcoholic as are 2 of his sons. His youngest son, my dad, barely touches alcohol. I can drink a glass of wine and easily leave the rest of the bottle. My brother can’t and has struggled with alcohol for years. I’m unable to drink more than a couple of small measures of spirits in any one sitting and he told me once he envies that about me.

It’s an illness and if it runs in your family it just seems to be down to sheer luck or misfortune if you inherit the addiction and can’t kick it.

Lilian seems to be a functioning alcoholic imo and I read Tony was a heavy drinker back in the day?

Actually, in reference to @Eastie77Returns 's comment on who was caring for Martha: it was noticeable that Susan didn't mention any Aldridges. Alice singlehandedly decided that Chris was going to do all of the parenting for the foreseeable future, but that doesn't explain why he's only called on his own side of the family for support. Alice herself is clearly incapable at present, but why haven't her extended family stepped up? Why is it only Carters, Horrobins, and Grundys?

There is a long back story of Alice drinking too much. Wasn't her first kiss with Chris a drunken kiss? If the scriptwriters have been playing a long game and her becoming an alcoholic was planned over a decade ago, then a BOOP point to the scriptwriters.

When did drunk Alice jump out of the tree and almost injure Ed?

Then there was a period in which she wasn't an alcoholic, but her drinking had become occasionally problematic. I'd put Nic's funeral, over six years ago, into that period.

I think Alice is an alcoholic because alcohol was her friend until one day it wasn't. And because "Alice has had a bit much to drink" was part of her "normal" those around her didn't realise that she was becoming an alcoholic until it was much too late.

It’s a good question, @Fink - as I’d had the impression she was often able to share Xander’s childcare. So either Adam or Ian, who had IIRC tailored their hours to be at home with him. If Ian now had a full time job at GG that might have made a difference, but I don’t think he does?

Of course, if Jenny were still around she might have corralled that side of the family into more active support …

I think if you abuse alcohol for long enough you are likely to end up addicted.

Lilian is a heavy drinker. If a doctor told her to stop drinking she’d stop. She wouldn’t like it much but she’d do it. Possibly being around a lot of social and even heavy drinkers plays a part in Alice’s gradual progression into full-blown alcoholism.

Alcoholism does tend to run in families, not always, but Alice does have it going against her. Much as I dislike Alice, I think it’s not easy to judge the effects of life on others - some who’ve had horribly traumatic childhoods turn out fine (or are hugely inspiring - Richard McCann, son of Wilma McCann, immediately comes to my mind, for example), while others can’t cope, and similarly, some people who seem to have had every opportunity can’t cope either.

I think because the Carter- Horrobin-Grundy set is bigger than the Aldridge family and perhaps Chris just feels more comfortable asking the former. Emma has been able to leverage her in-laws to help out (there was talk of Clarrie, Keira and even Will stepping in) so by extension he has access to a lot more childcare than most single dads and perhaps he's happier with the care coming from his side of the family.

If I were in his shoes I don’t know if I’d want to ask Adam who always sounds so drained (although to be fair he has been running around non-stop after Alice). I can’t for the life of me remember what Ian does and if still works at GG. Kate isn’t the kind of person I’d want to ask for a favour either but that’s just because I don’t like her😊

I agree that if JD was still alive the Aldridges would be a lot more involved.

In my catch up life, Alice and Chris have just returned from the US married.

Susan is crowing at what she considers an uplift in society, Jennifer is horrified and hoping for their quick divorce and uttered in disbelief to Brian ‘I am related to a Horrobin’ made me laugh. Her mum Peggy is delighted and reminds Jennifer of Peggy’s families humble roots.

So funny to see the 2 mothers differing snobberies

Possibly Alice picked up her tendency to alcoholism from grandad Jack.

Kate was mentioned in terms of childcare at one point

i don’t like the attitude of ‘oh she’s had a blessed life, why has she let herself get that way’ attitude because unfortunately health conditions don’t discriminate

i don’t like the attitude of ‘oh she’s had a blessed life, why has she let herself get that way’ attitude because unfortunately health conditions don’t discriminate

It's probably easier in some ways, if you can more easily afford another bottle of vodka, or other things to make life a bit easier, be it a taxi or food delivery or cleaner or whatever. You can probably cover over the initial cracks before they go too far.

Perhaps you’d enjoy the contemporaneous iteration of this thread covering the day Chris and Alice returned, @VoxPop? Should still be accessible through Search.

If only I could remember what I said here at the time! There was definitely some cackling over the ‘starter marriage’ comment. And probably speculation over what disaster it presaged.