The Archers #110: Game(keeping)'s up for Will. Game on for Lillian & Vince, Tracy & Oliver? Game over for Joe? Stay ahead of the game with all things Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to LillianGish for the title idea. Very tempted to go with MrsGrindah's suggestion of It’s all a bit crap and boring at the moment but let's be positive, maybe things will look up in the coming days ... Also very taken with Lexi's Midnight Runners - Burpers, maybe? - from Madcats.

Not at all happy about Lily not going to university. Yet another bright Ambridge woman not fulfilling her potential. Why do they do this?

MysticBore™️ predicts that Russ and Lizard will be getting together very soon now, as Lily is clearly starting to see him for what he is.

And yes, Tracey was magnificent!

Jenny is going to offer Lexi money to leave, in some horribly offensive manner dressed up as faux concern.

Yes, HYT.

if only JD would talk to Lexi; if only Brine would talk to Adam ...

Oh, no, that would be awful. Whoever was on the receiving end of that would get horribly distressed over Jenny's nasty, snobby, prejudice. What would she say: 'I'm worried that you might steal my darling son's baby, because you're an unreliable lower class cow.' ?

Oh, no, that would be awful.
JD is the queen of hosting, socialising, schmoozing, etc. I'm sure she could engineer a conversation whereby Lexi could open up and tell JD exactly what she told Adam (i.e. I'm going back to Bulgaria, solo). Similarly, Brine could say to Adam, "have a word with your mother, would you. She's getting herself in a state." But where's the draaaaaama in that?
It's so tedious.

I enjoyed the Sunday Lunch, though. Four people sitting around the table, chit-chatting, listening to each other, dropping little barbs.

Tracey was a tonic.

It was Lily who told Russ not to be such a snob.

Ah, I misheard. I was listening on a hotel TV, and hadn't discovered the volume button. Makes more sense, I guess. Still, it was most entertaining all round.

God, wasn't JD awful? Agree with HelloYouTwo that she's bound to do something that will embarrass and offend.

I very much enjoyed Tracey's handling of CMR.

Jenny’s awful. But I’m pretty sure I would be quite similar- if,Ihope, a bit more tactful. Imagine if you felt the thing your child wanted more than anything else in the world might be snatched away from him and the last minute......

I'm sure she could engineer a conversation whereby Lexi could open up and tell JD exactly what she told Adam

But Jenny already knows this, in theory, and is well aware of the plan and Lexi's intentions, it's just that she doesn't actually believe it in practice. If they fob us off with a scene where she finally lets Lexi speak and realises that it's all fine after all, I for one will be very put out. The way Jenny is at the moment, no conversation with Adam or Lexi is going to change her mind, because she's not thinking rationally she's in total panic mode. She'll just have to sit it out and wait for the 6 weeks to pass. Unfortunately, I sense that's not what's going to happen and we will have some awful melodrama. Grrr.

The point, @BertrandRussell, is that Jenny has no good reason to feel the way she does. I can imagine how it would feel if my child were in danger of losing his heart's desire, and how frantic I would be to prevent it, but I cannot imagine me completely overruling all the evidence in front of my eyes to invent a nightmarish scenario that bore no relation to reality. I know many new parents run through awful things that could happen to their newborn, because they're overwhelmed with the responsibility and possibly nearly hallucinating with sleep-deprivation, this should not extend to fanciful grannies who've formed a judgement with no reference to the reality of the situation.

And I'm not in favour of surrogacy. I just wish the opposition/ concerns were being expressed more coherently, because actually it just undermines the case for an opposition to surrogacy if the only murmurs of dissent within the programme are from a character who is increasingly unhinged.

if the only murmurs of dissent within the programme are from a character who is increasingly unhinged

But Jenny isn't speaking against surrogacy she is the voice of wanting the surrogate's few rights removed.

I don't agree that Jenny has always been selfish - she has always put herself second to the rest of the family even to the extent of forgiving Brian's numerous philanderings and adopting his child.

She is really badly written at the moment. Its perfectily consistent with her that she would be the one person anxious about Lexi changing her mind but presenting her as the hysterical shrew with no thought for Lexi herself is not consistent with her and is another character change to contort into a badly written plot.

Nobody in the series has so far given voice to any of the concerns for the surrogate in the arrangement unless you count the odd off screen comment from joke characters such as Derek Fletcher or Hilary Noakes who are portrayed as stupid people to be ignored.

I don't think being tired was a good enough reason for Adam and Ian to ignore Lexi in the days after the birth. A moment to send a text to check she was doing ok is nothing - if they couldn't think of her for that moment it says a lot about the great friendship. To describe recover as a few days when they have apparently read a library's worth of baby books also suggests her importance to them stops at being a baby carrier.

Of course that last could also just be more crappy writing.

I enjoyed the Sunday Lunch, though. Four people sitting around the table, chit-chatting, listening to each other, dropping little barbs

Me too. If Tracey is going to be used to voice what the buttoned up Archers won't say then more power to her!

I absolutely loved Tracy's response to CMR sneering at her going out with an older, richer man.

When Jenny was going on about how there was nothing to stop Lexie changing her mind, I wanted Brian to ask her why this had suddenly become such a crisis: after all, she's known that would be the case since before the pregnancy even started.

When she asked at the end of the programme what they should do about it, I suspect thousands of people all over the country turned to their radios and shouted "You do fuck all, you stupid woman".

I don't think being tired was a good enough reason for Adam and Ian to ignore Lexi in the days after the birth

Not on its own, but it's more convincing when you combine it with the fact that they did thank her profusely before, during and after the birth, and then genuinely thought that what she needed was some peace and quiet. It was obviously misguided of them, but they have very little experience of women in that situation. It's a pity one of them didn't mention it to Helen.

But Jenny isn't speaking against surrogacy she is the voice of wanting the surrogate's few rights removed

The only murmurs of dissent from Jenny relate to the shocking to her idea that Lexi might . have some feelings or rights.

Sorry if this has been covered but what's happened about Joe? I had a listening hiatus (it's been treated now ) and I keep expecting them to mention him.

what's happened about Joe?

He's still undead, madroid. Not been mentioned for weeks despite all the goings on and emoting and general bollocks at Grange Farm.

But I’m pretty sure I would be quite similar- if,Ihope, a bit more tactful. Imagine if you felt the thing your child wanted more than anything else in the world might be snatched away from him and the last minute......

I'm pretty sure my empathy would be for the woman who's handed over a baby, and I'd have realised this was a possibility around 9 months before and had the conversation with my son about it, then I'd have taken the opportunity after the birth to be as kind and supportive to the surrogate as possible.
Actually if it were me I'd have told my son exactly how awful surrogacy is when he first suggested it and done my best to dissuade him.

Fair enough @CodenameVillanelle- you’re a better woman than i suspect I’d be in the circumstances.

I just want to say Brian is still my favourite. I love his “here we go again” tone when dealing with Jenny‘a latest nonsense. I think Jenny’s just got herself stuck in this worry and hopefully will snap out of it soon. Tracy’s also great.

But I do hate the fact that all the issues around surrogacy have been skated over. You would have thought that somebody would have had reservations and there would at least have been a conversation. Pat used to be a feminist Helen?

I came across a link to this old Guardian article on Twitter the other day. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/feb/20/my-husband-has-stopped-cheating-on-me-after-35-years It made me think of Jennifer. No self-respect to put up with her husband's philandering all those years (and yes, I know she had an affair too, or came very close to one). Her entire sense of self is bound up with being the wife of a wealthy and powerful man and the matriarch to what she would like to be a perfect family. It isn't, of course. Adam was unfaithful to Ian, more than once, Kate is a monster who also cheated on her husband, Alice drinks too much and Debbie fell into a relationship with a much older man who abused his position as her university lecturer and later during their marriage he was repeatedly unfaithful.

That's before we even start on the weirdness that is Ruairi's position in the family.