The Archers #110: Game(keeping)'s up for Will. Game on for Lillian & Vince, Tracy & Oliver? Game over for Joe? Stay ahead of the game with all things Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to LillianGish for the title idea. Very tempted to go with MrsGrindah's suggestion of It’s all a bit crap and boring at the moment but let's be positive, maybe things will look up in the coming days ... Also very taken with Lexi's Midnight Runners - Burpers, maybe? - from Madcats.

Not at all happy about Lily not going to university. Yet another bright Ambridge woman not fulfilling her potential. Why do they do this?

Ouch, didn't mean to post the above

I don't share everyone's love of Joe Grundy I'm afraid. I started listening at an impressionable age in the seventies and he was a veritable pantomime villain in those days. I have just about got used to the reconstructed Eddie but Joe was always a mean old bugger.

I think the scriptwriters tried to soften his character in recent years knowing that the character would be the actor's legacy, but it has never rung true for me.

I like it when the characters have many facets. That's surely what we mean when we say we want character-led storylines?

Take just Susan, for example. (It does help, of course, that Susan is one of the best acted characters, and has never been re-cast.)

Susan is a loving wife in a long-lasting marriage. It was a shotgun marriage but it's worked. Her husband Neil stood by her when she went to prison for sheltering her jailbird brother, who'd threatened to harm her children if she didn't help him. They've moved well beyond that now.

Susan wanted a lot from life. She tried to push Neil towards a sales job and a lifestyle that raised their income and social status but he was unhappy. When he finally said no, that wasn't what he wanted, she wasn't happy but came to terms with it. The compensations came eventually when they built their own home and Neil got a management job that he felt comfortable with.

Susan didn't come from a family where education was a priority or expectations for her career were high. She has made the best of the hand she was dealt and has secure, skilled jobs at the Village Shop and Bridge Farm. She could have made a lot more of herself if she'd gone back into education, but she prioritised other things.

Susan is the village gossip but has no self-awareness about this and frequently tells people their secrets are safe with her. She has a lot of involvement in village life, not always in a positive way, but she does have friends as well as family. She likes a drink at times and we know she's a good cook and has an active sex life with Neil.

Susan is a devoted daughter, sister, mother and grandmother whose daughter is turning out very like her. She's very close to her birth family in spite of their many faults, to which she isn't blind. She remains on good terms with all of them except probably Clive, and is especially close to her sister and her sister's children.

Susan is a mother-in-law whose daughter-in-law comes from a very different background, not just socially, but educationally. She has managed to be very restrained about not pressuring Chris and Alice to have children, possibly because she knows how her own life has been totally dominated by the pressure of family responsibilities.

I could have done something similar to this for Joe. It's always best when there's a lot of conflicting stuff about a character.

I agree with your very thoughtful post, @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g, certainly as far as Susan is concerned. And I think Clarrieluv is a very well rounded and believable character. Maybe I heard too much mean Joe in my formative years!

Maybe joe himself mellowed in his old age - people do. Family and home were incredibly important to him and he treasured them and as he aged he became wiser about what mattered in life. Hence scenes where he gave advice derived from his own experience, to people like Brian or Shula. And being there for his family members over and over - his grandsons, nic, poppy and Eddie who confessed his dad had been his best friend when it came down to it.

I agree about the complexity of characters - I especially like Lynda snell. Snobby, bossy pain in the arse and yet much loved by her husband and someone who will go out of her way to help when people really need it. There are few I just can’t stand (mostly core Archer family) - though even they are fun to loathe - but a lot of characters are both annoying and admirable.

On the whole l think the death of Joe was well handled. I notice Eddie said he used to forgive the scrapes he got himself into, but as l recall it they were always in cahoots

Anthony Head alert: in Motherland

*Eddie said Joe used to forgive him, I mean

Listened this morning and was absolutely sobbing
Which is very very unlike me

Thought it was very well done

I was crying both yesterday morning (listening to Thursday’s episode) and this morning (listening to yesterday’s).

It was mawkish shite.
*Great. Joe Grundy is dead and not before time - quite the reverse. Having Eddie of all people - eloquent only when there is quid in it for him, normally - solilioquising was painfully embarrassing. The actor isn't up to it, had it even been believable. Which it wasn't.

Oh, and Clarrie still mithering on at William: the family's emotional blackmail has rendered him unemployed already, what more does she want? Him not to go to look at open courses of water, apparently. Stupid woman.*

I'm not entirely sure The Archers is for you. Maybe Zombie Killers in Hell Ramapage?

This is a lighthearted comment but I would defend the character of Clarrie to the hilt. I wish she was my mum. Warm, funny, generous, forgiving but takes no bullshit!

I don't wish that Clarrie was my mum.

I find serious Eddie so much more convincing than Eddie the village idiot/skally. I thought the scene with him and dead Joe was pretty good. Of late I've been able to think of him as an actor and not a clown.

Do we know whether Elizabeth had any recordings of Joe as part of her local history thing? If not I think it was an opportunity missed.

I don’t wish Clarrie was my mum- but oh how I identify with her as a mother!

not entirely sure The Archers is for you. Maybe Zombie Killers in Hell Ramapage?

Funny you should say that, wtffgs: Ambridge would be greatly enlivened, if only for a short while, by the Sam Peckinpah treatment - cf Salad Days, Monty Python.

And if we are going to have 'reminiscences of dear old Joe' extravaganza lasting weeks, which I fear we are, plus a coming together of estranged family in shared grief I will not be responsible for my actions.

The actor has actually died Pierrete what would one expect? Ed to jump up and down on his bed and say " I'm glad you're effin gone, we can get rid of those stinkin ferrets now and let your room out".

Perhaps TA isn't for you full stop.

Oh well. Alf doesn't know.

Dry eyed all through Joe's passing, I welled up good and proper at Susan and Clarrie's reconciliation - thought the writing and acting deserve a BOOP. (I too was once estranged from a friend, but I texted her when my father died and we restored our friendship.)

Susan and Clarrie were lovely. I am worried that there will be more financial woe for the Grundys around paying for the funeral, but hopefully Joe has been saving sixpence a week since 1970 and has a secret funeral fund to cover it.
Elizabeth and Rhuari were lovely together although I find him obnoxious usually. It does seem a little weird, though, that it has never been mentioned that his mother was friends with Elizabeth.

I loved susan and clarrie. so moving was kind of waiting for them to kiss

it has never been mentioned that his mother was friends with Elizabeth.

D’you mean since she died? They were very obviously friends while Siobhan was alive.

They were extremely close friends at one point. When Siobhan left Tim she moved into Lower Loxley and lived there with Ruairi for the first weeks of his life. At the twins' first birthday party she was chatting to Debbie when Debbie noticed that Siobhan was mopping up posset with a hankie she knew was Brian's (monogram)? At this point hardly anyone knew who Ruairi's father was, but the penny dropped for Debbie in that moment and the slurry hit the fan bigtime thereafter. Elizabeth came in for a lot of flak from the family for taking Siobhan's part, especially when it emerged that she had known for some time about Brian (IIRC). It ended Elizabeth's friendship with Debbie.

Yes I remember Elizabeth, Debbie and Siobhan being really good friends until the affair with Brian. I don’t think Elizabeth and Debbie’s friendship has ever really recovered.

Yes I'm liking the Ruairi Elizabeth scenes as well.

I think I remember listening to a very painful scene between Siobhan and Jennifer where Siobhan was dying and desperate that Ruairi wasn't just looked after but loved as well. Over the years it's become clear that Jennifer cares about Ruairi but I don't know if we've ever had any hints either way for whether Jennifer managed love.

The revelations from Elizabeth about Siobhan's anxiety about his care must be very moving for Ruairi

I meant that nobody had ever mentioned to Rhuairi that his mother and Elizabeth had been friends.

The actor has actually died Pierrete what would one expect?
Perhaps, ppeatfruit, for people not to conflate the late actor with his Archers character.
Joe Grundy was an unpleasant, dishonest and grasping old git long past his use-by date and the thought of him being eulogised by the whole village is nauseating.

Joe was one of my favourite characters, as I’ve said before. I don’t recognise your description Pierette in the man who comforted his dying granddaughter in law, for example. Or in his care and affection for Bartelby and the other pony. (Even when this involved trying to get free treatment out of Alistair). He was loyal to his family, unlike the many other characters who have had affairs etc.

I think it’s probably best if you don’t listen for a while, because I doubt this is going to play out as you would like. Joe’s family love him and the village holds him in affection so they’re not going to be pouring the kind on venom on his coffin that you’d enjoy. People tend not to speak ill of the dead in real life.