Discuss The Archers #108: Has Ed & Emma’s ship sailed? Will Alice stick her oar into Kate's love life? Can Shula walk on water? Come and discuss whatever floats your boat in The Archers.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads and @DadDadDad for being our resident statistician and keeping the ball rolling when Pseudo stepped back a bit.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @QuaterMiss for the title of this thread. For reasons of space had to cut out the bit speculating about Oliver and Tracy pairing off. Surely not!

Off now to give blood, something nobody in Ambridge ever does. See you all later.

I seem to remember that Will took pity on Nic because she was penniless and had nobody to turn to (Andrew was always painted as a wrong-un with no interest in the children). Bev was never mentioned either

I don't remember hearing about Bev the saintly grandmother until after Nic's death.

I don't like Emma. She might be hard working but she is also spiteful, mean-spirited and vindictive.

I don't like Emma either.
The Tracey character is a bit too much of a caricature for my liking.

C8H10N4O2, I wrote that on Wed 28-Aug-19 14:10:30. You must have missed the next-but-one post, on Wed 28-Aug-19 15:13:36, in which I corrected the typo I had made: "When I wrote "Helen", I actually meant Kate. Helen doesn't have a daughter yet."

I was pointing up the fact that Emma cheerfully told Susan (she didn't ask her) to look after the kids (even though George was out) and give them tea, because she wanted to go out and cosy up to Will rather than be in the same house as Tracy rather than be with her child.

Nic was on the way back from Poppy visiting Bev when she ran into Matt. Poppy was being sick at the time, I think. So Bev has not always been irrelevant in Poppy's life in the way Andrew seemed to be.

You must have missed the next-but-one post, on Wed 28-Aug-19 15:13:36, in which I corrected the typo

No I saw that which is why I substituted "Kate" into the quote.

I was pointing up the fact that Emma cheerfully told Susan (she didn't ask her) to look after the kids (even though George was out) and give them tea, because she wanted to go out and cosy up to Will rather than be in the same house as Tracy rather than be with her child.

The women in Ambridge often look after each others' children. I don't see that as unusual or odd where families are living together or close together. In a context where Susan is at home not planning to go out its hardly taking advantage to make such a request. Emma in returns helps other members of the family.

Emma knew Susan would be wanting Tracey to "talk to her" - at that point I'd have found a raging urge to go for walk to get away from the whole discussion for an hour.

She didn't go to "cosy up to Will. She had spent the last week trying to persuade George to visit his neglectful father. She had done nothing wrong but still felt guilty about it and presumably doesn't want that relationship to sour. She wasn't to know that Will would ask her in but in the context of your son's father with whom you have finally built a friendly relationship why on earth would you say "no"?

Over the years I've always seen Will as the better son and Ed as the problem childe but frankly I think both of them are bloody awful and wouldn't want any daughter of mine near either of them.

So Bev has not always been irrelevant in Poppy's life in the way Andrew seemed to be

Yes I remember Bev being talked about quite often. Andrew definitely needed the transplant fairy.

You must have missed the next-but-one post, on Wed 28-Aug-19 15:13:36, in which I corrected the typo

No I saw that which is why I substituted "Kate" into the quote.

You didn;t correct it, you perpetuated it. I did not intend to type "Kate"; if you had corrected it to Helen rather than leaving it as Kate in square brackets that might have been clearer.

I would still point out that "only when it suits you, dear" applies to Emma's behaviour that evening.

Emma was right to tell Ed about the attempted kiss. Otherwise it would have made her complicit with Will

Ed left her, therefore she had no duty to tell him anything.

She knows just how volatile both brothers are, it was absolutely insane to tell Ed that with Will upstairs waving a gun around.

I think some people here are a bit harsh on Will. I don't see him as unstable normally. He's had some real shit to deal with in his life. His brother and wife shack up together, make out his son is not his son, and then when DNA tests prove he is, plot to kidnap his child and run away so he will never see him again. His parents eventually, and continually, pressurise him to 'make up' with his brother.

His second wife dies suddenly and unexpectedly when he has a very inflexible job wtih anti-social hours and three kids to look after. His step kids leave him. Of course the poor guy is bloody deranged with misery! I'd be bloody bitter and resentful (as well as trusting of no-one) if I had lived his life too.

I have really gone off Ed. I thought dumping Emma because she wants more to his life than just him - even though what she wants is the modest ambition of a house of their own - was just despicable. As was rushing up angrily to attack his brother, because of an attempted kiss at the woman he had chosen to dump, when his brother was clearly dangerously unhappy and on the verge of suicide, was also despicable.

Mind you, I think a lot of Archer's characters are behaving out of character. Not really liking it at the moment. Tracy was a bright light till they chose to make her a foolish light relief with the ghost story line.

I have more sympathy for Will than I have for Ed and Emma.

You didn;t correct it, you perpetuated it

OK I'm confused. In the post I was quoting you said "Helen" which you then corrected to "Kate" in your follow up at 15:13. I put Kate in square brackets to indicate I'd modified it inline with your own correction.

So did you mean Helen or Kate?

In reality it wouldn't change my answer I think. Emma helps others at least as much as they help her, often more so. She also works incredibly hard. She isn't remotely comparable to Kate.

I think some people here are a bit harsh on Will. I don't see him as unstable normally. He's had some real shit to deal with in his life.

Over the years I have been team Will - emotionally illiterate and sexist but by far the better of the two brothers. But a lot of his worst behaviours during bereavement are rooted in sexism and a desire for everyone to conform to his world view. Bereavement doesn't excuse all that.

Regarding Ed - yes agree but then I've never been an Ed fan. Softened toward him in recent years as I thought he had finally grown up to take some responsibility but he is really no different.

I'm sorry about the muddling; it was my fault (my excuse is a filthy cold which makes me think sideways). I meant Kate, and specifically in the instance of only being the child's mother when it suited her: on this occasion Emma had decided she didn't want to be in the house when Tracy was there, and dumped the child on Susan without a by-your-leave and ran off without saying when she'd be back. Very Kate behaviour, that.

On the subject of Will=sexist; I'm not sure I understand what of his behaviour during his bereavement has been sexist; I doubt that he forced Mia to decide she was going to try to fill her mother's role in the family and martyr herself to that ideal. I think he has simply been miserable, a condition made worse by Jake walking out, Mia suddenly-from-his-point-of-view turning on him without warning and walking out too, and Bev being threatening in the background with words to the effect "I'll be watching you, and if I am unhappy about how Poppy is getting on I shall have you."

Previously, Will didn't like Nic working in the pub where some unhelpful person told him she was a real hit with the male punters; his wife having walked out on him with someone else, he was a bit sensitive about perhaps being sexually betrayed by the woman he was living with, and found the idea of her flirting with the pub's customers horrible. This seems to me to have been very little different from Ed objecting rather a lot to Emma going out to work and having to be told what was what by Emma in no uncertain terms before he stopped saying he didn't like it. Actually, it seems easier to understand. Ed wanted Emma to stop home and look after the children, as I recall, while being unable to bring in enough money to keep them in food and clothing.

I am finding Ed apparently thinking he owns Emma even after he's told her that they were through, and that he has a right to decide who can kiss her or rather not actually kiss her, very iffy indeed.

What is deeply unattractive about Will is his knee-jerk automatically thinking the worst of Ed despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. He assumed Ed was going to dob him in as soon as he found out about the Nic/Matt thing, he assumed he'd already done it the other day, he assumed Ed had told Bev about him taking Poppy out to work at nights. It's pretty obvious his mind leaps to that conclusion because it's what he would do if their positions were reversed.

I'm not sure I understand what of his behaviour during his bereavement has been sexist; I doubt that he forced Mia to decide she was going to try to fill her mother's role in the family and martyr herself to that ideal.

He did sort of force her into that role by being so useless himself, though. How on earth did he imagine that Poppy's lunches were being done and her uniform ironed when he wasn't doing it?

How on earth did he imagine that Poppy's lunches were being done and her uniform ironed when he wasn't doing it?
Yes. He's that sexist that it didn't even enter his head to imagine.
He was also so selfish that he put his grief ahead of the DCs', he was/is no support to them at all.

Mia was a 13 year old child, she didn't martyr herself, she tried to cope looking after poppy whilst will failed to provide basic care for any of his children.

And what he said to Mia before she left - was deeply unpleasant and sexist. About how she should have been looking after them, and how her Mother would be ashamed of her neglecting them. When the girl had been collecting her sister from the school bus, shopping at the village shop, cutting her sisters hair etc.

“I doubt that he forced Mia to decide she was going to try to fill her mother's role in the family and martyr herself to that ideal.”
Blimey- that’s a bit harsh on Mia! She was only 12- and saw her little sister not being looked after properly. What else was she going to do?

He didn't force Mia - but he did nothing for a year to stop her. He let her give up football. When people spoke to him he ignored the problems. He didn't even really listen when Tracey told him what a treasure Mia was. He only started to step up when he thought he was going to lose her - and then when she wasn't thrilled by a camping trip, he lashed out at her.

So what happens now. In order for Poppy to come home, Ed, Emma, Eddie and Clarrie (if they tell her about the gun) now have to collude in lying to Bev that Will is safe to have Poppy. He isn't. Will they all put her at risk?

If I was Bev, and they did that and I found out, I'd contact SS, and take Will to court for a guardianship of Poppy.

“If I was Bev, and they did that and I found out, I'd contact SS, and take Will to court for a guardianship of Poppy.“
I agree. But somebody downthread has already said it’s “not her place”

How can the Grundy's let Will have Poppy back after te gun incident?

I don't see how they can. My guess is that they will make Will move in with them and ensure that someone is always with him. None of which makes Poppy safe obviously.