Discuss The Archers #108: Has Ed & Emma’s ship sailed? Will Alice stick her oar into Kate's love life? Can Shula walk on water? Come and discuss whatever floats your boat in The Archers.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads and @DadDadDad for being our resident statistician and keeping the ball rolling when Pseudo stepped back a bit.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @QuaterMiss for the title of this thread. For reasons of space had to cut out the bit speculating about Oliver and Tracy pairing off. Surely not!

Off now to give blood, something nobody in Ambridge ever does. See you all later.

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Emma and Ed
Kiera

Sorry didn’t see there was another comment on a new page.

I don’t know why Emma told Ed Will tried to kiss her, surely she’d have kept that from him.

Emma told Ed about the kiss because that’s what this is all about. Will’s spiral of depression was triggered by Nic’s death, but his grief and despair now is about more than that - it’s about losing Emma and George. Losing Mia and Jake (even though they were never really his to lose) and his fear of losing Poppy are all part of the same thing. Being told George didn’t want to see him anymore was the final straw. His actions - in losing Ed his job - have blown Ed and Emma apart. Will had actually allowed himself to get his hopes up that Emma might come back to him (that he could rescue her as easily as he rescued her coffee table). I don’t think Nic really features in this anymore - otherwise how could he try and seduce Emma to their (Will and Nic’s) wedding song. Nic was just a sticking plaster to try and heal the wounds left by losing Emma. When she died that plaster was ripped off. It’s all about that kiss.

So unresolved issues from when Emma left him originally?

I think that's a really good analysis Lillian.
Silvery, I don't like Eddie, I think on a day to day basis he treats Clarrie with low level contempt, with an annual treat of a meal out to make it all up to her. I think he subjects his family to a range of dodgy schemes which drag his family down. At times of great stress he does as Bertrand said show a range of skills and empathy, he was also extremely useful when Nic became ill, the fact that he has this emotional intelligence, empathy etc but chooses not to use it in everyday life makes me dislike him even more.
Long answer to your question!

lilian that was a super post below.

I’m not sure I agree re Will never getting over Emma. If that’s the case I haven’t picked up evidence for it.

What does everyone feel about the surrogacy storyline? I feel it gets very close to propaganda. Only Roy (?) has voiced opposition and his objections are cast as very regressive. There are many points to be made against surrogacy but according to TA there are none. I wish they could treat the topic with a bit of nuance.

It’s not merely the fact that he lost Emma - the crucial point is that he lost her (and George) to Ed. He’ll never understand how Emma - a woman so driven by a desire to own her own home (and coffee table) - could ever in a million years choose Ed over him.

And did he love Nic? I know he is grieving but was their evidence in their day to day life? I think she could have been anyone.

I don't get the sense that he's never recovered from losing Emma. I thought part of his despair yesterday was the realisation he made a terrible mistake trying to kiss Emma and feeling he betrayed Nic who he still desperately misses.

I think Eddie is basically lazy - most things stem from that. He gives Clarrie just enough to keep her happy (and she was raised to be down trodden by her father).
If he can be bothered - such as if Clarrie ever really threatened to leave him or in a crisis - then he uses his emotional intelligence and steps up and is great. And that intelligence is how he makes friends at the market, makes some money from his dodgy schemes, even when stuff goes wrong people forgive him etc.

I think it's a lot like a Builder who has all the skills but lives in a half finished house (you know the bathroom is plumbed in but there is no side on the bath, the tiling is only half done and there is bare plaster in places).

Emma was right to tell Ed about the attempted kiss. Otherwise it would have made her complicit with Will.

Emma was right to tell Ed about the attempted kiss. Otherwise it would have made her complicit with Will

Complicit with what? An I'll judge misreading of a situation? It was daft of her to tell Ed at that point.

Yes crap timing.

Silvery, I don't like Eddie, I think on a day to day basis he treats Clarrie with low level contempt I don't think it's knowing contempt, I think if he were forced to think about it, he'd regard it as "different by equal'.

There's a lot of role differentiated marriages in Ambridge - Jennifer and Brian (and I think what Brian feels about Jenny is getting closer to contempt - his praise of Jenny is layered on top of a feeling that feeding the family is a lesser job); Ruth, despite being a farmer, is the only one expected to cook, and so on. Tony and Pat, despite their inadequacies as parents, seem to have more of a team approach, Neil and Susan, despite having different roles, have more of an appreciation of each other.

Did he love Nic? Nic was the only person who could make Will see reason, but what he really loved was having someone who loved him so he could say to Ed “I have a wife and my own house (in fact I have two houses) she doesn’t need to work and I have my own child living with me (and also Jake and Mia)” Funnily enough he didn’t feel the need to fight for the rights of absent fathers where Andrew was concerned. Nic eventually persuaded Will to allow her to have a job, but nothing that meant he ever had to worry about childcare or anything domestic. When she died suddenly all that was gone - and he couldn’t even console himself with his two houses because it looked as if Ed and Emma were going to get a house of their own. I think he loved Nic, but not as much as he hated the fact Ed had got Emma.

Emma enjoys all the drama. She is constantly stirring things up: split up with Ed => go visiting Will; Will tries to kiss her => tell Ed.
It may be subconscious but it is probably driven by her desire to Have It All. She wants an amalgam of both brothers. She is wishing for the impossible.

Even the thickest person under stress would have realised that telling Ed about the kiss at that moment was idiotic. I’m sure we’re now going to have to listen to more of Emma making it all about her, when she is the one causing most of her own problems with her total inability to stop herself saying the nastiest possible thing at the worst possible moment. At least her mother has the sense to talk behind people’s backs.

Andrew never showed the least desire to be a father to his children until he was given the character change to suit the "hammer Will right into the ground" storyline which started with Nic's death. Before her death he had been mentioned on air about four times since Nic left him, and two at least of those were him not paying maintenance and him not seeing his children on a day which had been arranged because he couldn't be bothered. He only suddenly had a house large enough for them both to live in, and a wife who was warm and lovely, and any interest in his children at all, after Nic's funeral.

Who fed her daughter in her absence, and put Keira to bed? She is like [Kate]: "I'm her mother!" "Only when it suits you, dear," said Peggy

Emma is nothing like Kate. Emma has nothing that she hasn't worked for and works her socks off. She takes any job available and any hours to support her family (unlike Ed for instance who is quite picky about the work he is willing to do).

When Clarrie/Susan look after Keira its because Emma is working for the family, not getting her nails done. Emma in turn is quick to help others in the family - she helps Clarrie at home (including looking after Eddie's dodgy B&B guests) and has looked after Poppy many times for Will.

Will was not the guilty party in the whole Ed/Emma/George nonsense - they both behaved really badly to him. Of the two Grundy boys Will has always been the harder working, more honest son. However that was 13 yrs ago and Emma has helped WIll hugely since Nic died and they had formed a friendly connection. If Will had "misread the signals" and leaned forward but backed off and apologised that would be a momentary aberration. He didn't - he then blamed Emma for his own appalling behaviour.

I often wonder how Clarrie managed to raise two such appalling misogynists, but then look at how Eddie treats her?

what he really loved was having someone who loved him so he could say to Ed “I have a wife and my own house (in fact I have two houses) she doesn’t need to work....

Yes I agree. She was always partly prize possession - the wife at home. I didn't like the way he coerced her into having another child when she didn't want one and made it difficult for her to work.

I agree with you on the recent writing though - stupid melodrama which is largely a complete turn off.

Whatever their relationship to the child. Clarrie has been incredibly irresponsible in my opinion. She is thinking about what is best for Will, not what is best for a vulnerable grieving child

Yes I agree entirely. More than that Will has had almost too much help from the family (or more accurately, the women in the family). They have all fussed around him and helped him often at cost and inconvenience to themselves. When his behaviour was bad they excused it.

Its natural to bend over backward to help a grieving person but Nic has been dead a long time now and he has made no progress really to managing life as a single parent whilst working. He consistently assumes that Clarrie and Emma will change what they do to fit in with him. They all keep affirming to him that he is right and behaving normally.

The single most useful piece of help he was offered in the last 6 months was Elizabeth frankly talking about coping after bereavement and the counselling help. Which will then ignored.

and why is Tracey being cast as the gullible village idiot?

Because she's working class, therefore, comic relief

Yes. I'm getting increasingly irritated with Tracey being cast as the village idiot and bored rigid with StShula and her self absorption. She behaved spitefully to Tracey not to mention unprofessionally as someone aspiring to a pastoral role. I cannot imagine Alan responding that way to Tracey even if he did suspect motives.

Asking I seem to remember that Will took pity on Nic because she was penniless and had nobody to turn to (Andrew was always painted as a wrong-un with no interest in the children). Bev was never mentioned either.

The way things are going I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Gills turn out to be lovely people with an eligible son or daughter for one of the young current characters to marry!

“Yes. I'm getting increasingly irritated with Tracey being cast as the village idiot”

Yep. Yet another personality transplant.