Discuss The Archers #107: Beware of the Dragon! Peggy's in her den awaiting bids - who gets the hoard and who gets flamed?

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads and @DadDadDad for being our resident statistician and keeping the ball rolling when Pseudo stepped back a bit.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @MrsGrindah for inspiration for the title of this thread. I was hoping to find a way to combine it with @C8H10N4O2's inspired suggestion of '"The Assumption of the Ambridge Angel' and @chemenger's comment 'I hope she gets kicked in the head by a horse and wakes up an atheist', but it all got a bit too lengthy.

Odds on Joe shuffling off this mortal coil before this thread ends? We've been marking/anticipating his passing for a while now.

Tracey is already a joint tenant at the Horrobin family home. She was added to the tenancy when she moved back to care for her father.

She has two children, a job, and cares for an elderly relative (and Gary). She probably gets some help, tax credit, carers allowance, etc but so do many low earning families. I am not sure claiming benefits that she is legitimately entitled to should be frowned upon. It is certainly better for her children than shacking up with the next available bloke like Helen did.

De-lurking to say how much I enjoy reading your posts C8 Very fair and factual with kindness.
Back to lurking!

She thought it was a bit of VAT avoidance though didn't she? Which she sees plenty of local farmers doing (and in fact wouldn't be possible without local landowners participating)

Did she say that? It was obviously involving dodgy goods of some sort. Stolen was the most likely.

Re dodging VAT - how does she know that people are dodging it? Above a certain level of turnover all businesses have to register. Businesses below it can register and many do as it allows them to claim back the Vat they have paid on goods and services provided for their businesses. It's in the interests of farmers, whether tenants or owner occupiers to register for VAT.

I don't think people do sneer at Emma, do they? They have a bit of a wry smile about Eddie and Joe, but local people voted for Emma in the parish council elections. Robert Snell recognised her worth, Jim Lloyd helped her with her campaign.

As far as her begrudging Fallon and Kirsty their houses because they married the right people, I don't think either Phillip or Harrison were particularly born with a silver spoon. OK, Chris and Alice live in a cottage given to Alice by her parents, but Chris has worked incredibly hard to build up his business. Emma is letting jealousy eat her soul and it will either be the ruin of her, or if she can get it under control, might give her the impetus to really change her life.

Apart from Neil and Susan is there anyone in in Ambridge with a business/home that they didn't marry or inherit?
That's a loaded question. We only hear about long-term residents who, by definition, have roots. We seldom hear about the commuters on the new estates. But we do have some exceptions eg the Snells, Justin, Jim, ...

She is also probably angry with herself, she has I am afraid made a bad choice in Ed. I am currently watching a friends life implode and this is mainly due to the person she fell in love with in her twenties. We don't understand the impact of the choices we make when we are young. Emma will know this deep down and her anger is manifesting itself in jealousy etc. If you lived with Clarrie and Eddie you would surely spend a lot of time worrying that your marriage would become like theirs.

Emma wasn't being reasonable but from her point of view Fallon married money and security, (she wouldn't be a house owner without Harrison's secure job and pension); Kirsty has married a house; Chris married a house; everyone else has secure accommodation courtesy of family.

Well, yes, but that isn't valid grounds for being so spiteful about them, or thinking you have a right expect them to commit fraud on your behalf or hand over thousands when your stupid husband loses his job. In educational terms, Harrison's and Phil's backgrounds are likely to be very similar to Ed's and Emma's, but they've done something sensible with their lives and worked hard to reach the security they have, it hasn't dropped into their laps. Even Chris went out and got a qualification and would be perfectly capable of supporting himself if Alice wasn't working.

I do think Ed had a point, they were never going to keep the house in the long term, it would've been a millstone around their necks, he realised that whatever he did it wasn't going to be good enough for Emmur, and he'd had enough. I can't blame him really, she's been spiteful and cruel to him and others recently. I can't see her ending up with many friends when this is all over I'm afraid.

We don't understand the impact of the choices we make when we are young.

Agree.

Emma could have stayed at school, got some more qualifications - it's currently looking unlikely she'll ever be able to access a job that pays much more than NMW.

She could also have made a (cold, hard) choice about whether to start a family with someone who had little prospect of being able to maintain said family in a comfortable manner.

Someone said upthread about Emma being able to find a more suitable partner than Ed now. From what I have seen, this is unlikely. I think a lot of people might be put off, for example, by the person they are dating having two kids by two siblings. Blended families can be tricky enough anyway, so realistically I think both Emma and Ed may not get new partners soon.

As for Ed, I wonder if he'll do what he did last time Emma dumped him - run away, sleep rough, develop a crack habit, maybe a fatal one. Then they can have an An Inspector Calls final scene, with everyone who dismissed Emma and Ed taking it in turns to be defensive.

That's a little unfair- Will wasn't coping because of the loss of Nic and his obstinacy in accepting help. I don't think there was any suggestion before then that he wasn't a good father.

a) that problem hasn't gone away. So even if we accept that all his parenting problems stem from grief over Nic, he still hasn't dealt with that. He's graciously allowed Bev to babysit regularly, but it's hard to see how that's going to magically solve the fact that he doesn't have a clue how to run a household as well as hold down a job. Every single insight into his parenting since Nic's death has been about his failure to cope. He once vacuumed, when Elizabeth was round, that's it.

b) But actually I don't accept that he was any good as a father even before Nic died. It has always been Nic, Emma, and Clarrie who have actually parented the children, not just their physical needs (although they have done pretty much 100% of that), but listening to them, helping them emotionally etc. Will hasn't lifted a finger apart from buying the odd lavish gift and taking them on an occasional day out. I can't see any evidence that he has done much parenting at all. He has been the breadwinner for the household and seems to view that as sufficient input. I wouldn't be surprised to find out he didn't know his kids' shoe sizes, teachers' names, or favourite colour when Nic was alive and I haven't seen anything to indicate he's much better now.

That's a loaded question

Yes it was and I posed it badly. What was going through my mind was how many people had made it on their own of Neil/Susan's age or below - so Generation Jones and below.

There was a period of time where this was a realistic aspiration for most of the bottom third of income groups and I don't think this is still the case. Some injection from family/marriage seems essential even if you are hard working and a saver. I think TA is demonstrating that although the magic rental fairy happens far more than in RL

As far as her begrudging Fallon and Kirsty their houses because they married the right people, I don't think either Phillip or Harrison were particularly born with a silver spoon

We don't know although Harrison's parents were home owners able to support his brother and also supply cash to help with a deposit to supplement his own savings. Philip came with a business already in place when he met Kirsty - we don't know more than that.

I don't think Emma is being reasonable and fair but I do think her abject panic and distress is totally comprehensible and not as unreasonable as portrayed.

Alice live in a cottage given to Alice by her parents, but Chris has worked incredibly hard to build up his business

Chris is a hard worker who went out and learned a trade - much as Will did. However he bought the business as a going concern from his apprentice master and was only able to do that because they had neither mortgage nor rent to pay. If they were paying either then his earnings would not have been enough to get the business loan as well.

Did she say that?

Yes she did - I can't recall the exact words but it was along the lines of all the local farmers/businesses doing stuff for cash to avoid VAT which is probably partly true. Ed let her think it was just doing stuff off the books, he never told her it was illegal goods. If she had thought they were stolen or illegal the VAT point would have been irrelevant.

It's in the interests of farmers, whether tenants or owner occupiers to register for VAT

Yes you would think but one of my siblings runs a building contracting business in a rural area and finds that most land/large property owners asking for quotes want cash prices - its annoying and time wasting.

He is big enough and specialist enough that he doesn't need business from clients who try to force the issue but knows that a lot of smaller tradesman needing the work comply, especially at quiet times.

Just thinking about all the other characters who have homes etc, and have/haven’t been given help, especially the working class characters - Roy Tucker has his own place, but that was down to his Mum and Dad helping out with the actual property, even though he and Hayley paid for the building work.

Tracy Horrobin is in a fairly stable situation, although she got there in a pretty sneaky way - does anyone else see similarities in character between her and Kate Madikane?

am not sure claiming benefits that she is legitimately entitled to should be frowned upon. It is certainly better for her children than shacking up with the next available bloke like Helen did.

Who’s frowning at Tracey being on benefits? I was commenting on the idea that Emma might emulate her ‘independence’. Tracey looks after her family very well and is entitled to help from the state and I like her take on life, but I think Emma is looking for something different. Tracey certainly isn’t that well off, which makes her donation to Emma’s war chest all the more significant.

Emma has the problem of lack of qualifications. Perhaps she could study for them but it is hard to see how she would have time in between all her jobs and the children.

Splitting from Ed makes no financial sense. does it? If he fills in the hours he has lost from Adam, he won’t necessarily be that worse off. Would Emma receive more in benefits as a single parent than she’d have had from being with Ed?

I wish the Grundys would investigate their benefit entitlement more. There have been times when they must have been entitled to housing benefit and tax credits, yet even when they are in the most desperate financial straits it never once seems to occur to them to check.

Would Emma receive more in benefits as a single parent than she’d have had from being with Ed?

No, almost certainly not. I've never yet meet a single mother who was financially better off than when she was in a couple. I suppose it's technically possible for someone whose ex is paying very high child support and who is able to claim benefits as well, but that wouldn't be Emma's situation.

Plus all her housing costs (unless she lives with her parents) won't be split between the two incomes. It is much much more expensive to run a household on your own.

So financially she'll be much worse off, but that wasn't what Ed was thinking when he told her it was over.

I took Fallon’s reaction to Keira’s chickenpox ‘interesting’... now waiting for reports of her being ill or tired.

I found Fallon’s reaction to Keira’s chickenpox ‘interesting’... now waiting for reports of her being ill or tired.

BOOP for the brilliant acting in that episode. I’m generally a pretty honest person but I was still wondering why on earth Ed was insisting on telling the bank about his change in circumstances.
I thought Emma’s point of his parents not being ‘alright’ was very well made
.

Oh dear But Ed was never as ambitious as Emm. she had to push them both. The children will suffer though.

Ed is ambitious in his own way. He wants to breed prize-winning Texels.

Really enjoying @C8H10N4O2’s posts on this thread, and agree totally 😊

Don’t think i’ll be bothering with the omnibus tomorrow, i’m too traumatised by it all still

What happens when the elderly Horrobin family member dies and Tracy’s children grow up? She won’t be eligible for those benefits and the bedroom tax might mean she loses the house. What’s her job? I can’t remwbee.

Or does Tracy inherit the lease?