Discuss The Archers #107: Beware of the Dragon! Peggy's in her den awaiting bids - who gets the hoard and who gets flamed?

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads and @DadDadDad for being our resident statistician and keeping the ball rolling when Pseudo stepped back a bit.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @MrsGrindah for inspiration for the title of this thread. I was hoping to find a way to combine it with @C8H10N4O2's inspired suggestion of '"The Assumption of the Ambridge Angel' and @chemenger's comment 'I hope she gets kicked in the head by a horse and wakes up an atheist', but it all got a bit too lengthy.

Odds on Joe shuffling off this mortal coil before this thread ends? We've been marking/anticipating his passing for a while now.

They had a war chest of over £18,000 to cover the monthly payments.

Yes quite - what a time for Ed to suddenly develop a misplaced sense of honesty when he has never been over troubled by in the past.

somebody should be keeping a very watchful eye on Ed

I can’t even begin to consider that in terms of the story - but it’s certainly a fact that the Ed actor, Barry Farrimond MBE, has his finger in other very worthy and time consuming pies. (His personal website is rather out of date but he’s active on Twitter.) Who knows?

But really, like many other listeners, I could have done without having to wake up to such a weight of sorrow this morning ...

She is sounding incredibly entitled. Her situation is largely down to her life choices - she's an intelligent woman who obviously has some ambition, but she's too ready to blame other people for her situation.

Honestly I think that is outrageously unfair. I haven't always liked Emma but she has always worked her socks off to make something of her life and give her children security. If that is ambitions above her station in life then good on her.

Oliver and Emma have both helped Ed. Emma has always worked the triple shift largely to compensate for Ed's shortcomings. Ed has benefited from that support over the years and now the throws it back at her and runs away because when he was caught short with his dodgy scheme she didn't make everything all about him. He's utterly spineless and happy to pootle along and let a woman carry his load - just like Eddie.

Brookfield have put quite a lot of casual work Ed's way.

That isn't charity - they have Ed/Eddie on tap to provide cheap hourly labour when it suits them to have someone milk the cows or sheer the sheep. Brookfield benefits from local available and known labour with no overheads. Agricultural work was one of the earliest groups to be deregulated in the 80s in favour of business owners, creating a lot of the insecurity faced by the EdnEmmurs of the world today.

I find it very telling that when Emma was absolutely desperate the self congratulatory great and good of Ambridge slapped her down for presumption, without even offer an kind ear whilst the poor relations were willing to give everything they had.

That is a pattern very true to life IME.

Yes, but that's the point isn't it - the relations gave. Most people would be able to assume help from family. I know Emma is desperate, but what the hell she was thinking of, asking all and sundry for money (and not just the odd tenner)? And I'm not having a go for her having ambition - that's great. I just don't have a clue why they always appear to be so close to the breadline - they've probably got more money going into the house than we do!

but it’s certainly a fact that the Ed actor, Barry Farrimond MBE, has his finger in other very worthy and time consuming pies

Wow! I never knew all that about him, worth a Google.

Wonderful acting last night! Very moving.

I hope that Emma will now have a good talk with her Dad, pull herself together and apply for a mortgage on her own. With help from her parents she may well be able to secure the house for her and the kids. It would be in their interests to help as otherwise she is likely to have to move back into Ambridge View which they weren't particularly happy about last time.

I suppose the only alternative would be for Ed to stay at Grange Farm with his parents enabling them to pay the rent and for Emma to rent 1 The Green from Will, but can she afford that on her own? And can the Grundys manage without Emma's wages from her three jobs?

I think if the Grundys still give up Grange Farm will might find himself homeless. Would he be prepared to live in Will's house? Would Will let him? Is there space?

I do think there is a high chance of Emma and Will getting back together. Much as I would love to see Emma stand on her own two feet and make a life for her and the kids independently I am not sure that is something her (or the scriptwriters) believe is possible.

Sadly there aren't too many examples of strong independent successful single mothers in Ambridge. Pip, Helen and Kate are far too reliant upon their families, and Elizabeth's financial position is too far removed from anything Emma could imagine. Others seem to remarry or have a succession of boyfriends who support them. Tracey seems to be the best example Emma has, let's hope she gives Emma a "you don't need a man" talk.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g - thank you for that clear analysis of Ed's position, I agree with you and think his behaviour last night was perfectly plausible, in their circumstances.
That episode was one of the best written and acted I've heard in a long time and to my mind, far more realistic in terms of long-term plot and character development than any of the more recent random producers' deliberately issue-driven stories, which have been well-written but came out of the blue and were developed at the expense of established characters' - um - characters (coercive control, the effects of unreported child abuse to name but a couple where the Personality Transplant Fairy took hold).

As far as we heard, they never really sat down together and talked it through - Emma got a mad idea about borrowing all the money off family and friends , rather than just enough to carry them through the next few months (which would have been feasible with the money from Neil.) They weren't in it together, so couldn't back each other up.

And Ed's still got a barn full of shonky weedkiller, so there's still a chance he'll end up banged up, just not for defrauding the mortgage company.

but what the hell she was thinking of, asking all and sundry for money (and not just the odd tenner)?

She was desperate and people do stupid things when desperate.

It wasn't all and sundry was it? Jim may have been a casual acquaintance but Ruth and Peggy have known her since childhood and she has been a good and reliable worker for both.

No they were never going to lend her money but both treated her like dirt, not someone plainly desperate who has provided them with years of good service.

She had earned at least a kind ear from both of them, smugly sat their on their assets.

I don't think Emma and Will will end up back together but over the long term they have much more in common than Emma and Ed. Both are grafters who want to do better for their children. Ed, like Eddie, is quite happy to pootle along and let a woman take the load.

Both the Grundy boys have the Grundy misogyny streak but will does at least expect to work hard to allow a wife to be a SAHM whereas Ed wants it both ways (just like Eddie)

Tracey would rely on state benefits, rather than a man. And I’m not saying that snidely, but nothing we have heard about her suggests she earns enough money to be completely self sufficient.

I can see Will offering a roof over Emma's and Keira's head for the sake of George. This doesn't mean they are together. His tied house will be big enough for them to have separate rooms.

Oh no, don't let George go to Will, that'll be awful. He couldn't cope with Jake, Mia, and Poppy, there's no way he should be given care of another child

That's a little unfair- Will wasn't coping because of the loss of Nic and his obstinacy in accepting help. I don't think there was any suggestion before then that he wasn't a good father.

Will is inevitably going to be involved in solving the housing problem. Either his parents, Emma and the children go to 1 The Green and Ed moves in with Will (as he won't have anywhere else to go) or Emma and the children go to the tied house and Grundy parents and Ed are in 1 The Green.

Emma does seem to have forgotten about her encouraging Ed to take tim’s work, even when he warned her that it seemed shady.

Not that I regard him as other than his father’s son: a bit of a drifter through life, expecting other people to make it happen.

Isn't it interesting how we see things differently. I certainly see it differently from C8. Harrison and Fallon rented from Christine. It was a sensible-sized property, they were good tenants and got on with their landlady so when the time came she sold them the house at a reasonable rate. Meanwhile, the Grundys have been renting a property they can't afford, not looking after it and getting used to living in grandeur. Is Emma grateful? - no, she's resentful and spiteful. She then tried to buy a property that was not really affordable (despite its branding) and fill it with expensive nick-nacks. She wanted too much, too soon. She wanted to go from Nothing to Everything, with no baby steps on the way.
She has this thing in her head that landlords can evict you at a moment's notice but doesn't seem to realise that owners can be evicted, too, if they don't pay the mortgage. It's not that different until you are mortgage-free. In fact it can be a bit of a millstone (Fink is not alone in her story). Ed realises what borrowing off friends and relatives can do, which is why he didn't want to borrow off Will.
I wonder if Emma will change her attitude towards Tracey when she finds that Trace will 'inherit' the can't-be-evicted Council tenancy. The green-eyed monster will rise again.

There are several Ed-types in our village—kind and neighbourly men who will always do you a favour, but with little get up and go. Quite a few are getting divorced now because their wives tend to be a little more outward-looking and want more for the children.

Some of the Eds regard trips to London once a year as more than enough travel. They don’t have passports. They’re happy working in outdoor jobs and spending free time outdoors raising livestock or as gamekeepers. They don’t worry about not owning homes because it’s always been that way for their families, for generations.

Silvercatowner, a special welcome to the thread from me

Thank-you @TheSilveryPussycat!

Emma does seem to have forgotten about her encouraging Ed to take tim’s work, even when he warned her that it seemed shady

She thought it was a bit of VAT avoidance though didn't she? Which she sees plenty of local farmers doing (and in fact wouldn't be possible without local landowners participating). There was no suggestion that she knew it was something like illegal chemicals - Ed was quite selective in what he told her.

not looking after it and getting used to living in grandeur

I don't think there was evidence of that. Eddie is a slob but Clarrie and Emmal always ensured it was clean and well kept including making sure Eddie's dodgy schemes were not left lying about the place. Caroline even commented on Clarrie's housekeeping.

She wanted too much, too soon. She wanted to go from Nothing to Everything, with no baby steps on the way

I think that is harsh. She has been working for this for 15 yrs or more, saving every penny and working multiple jobs. So she got a bit silly about soft furnishings when facing the prospect of a real home at last - do you know anyone that doesn't? I certainly bought stuff I didn't need for our first place.

There is no security in renting, with a mortgage you can't be simply section 21'd even if you default and there is a bit more time and the hope of some capital left. There is nothing for most young families between insecure tenancies and home ownership. We don't build social housing any more and the jobs of the low paid are most likely to be the deregulated markets.

In Emma's case (and Susan's) its also about wanting to be respected. The great and good of Ambridge have always looked down their noses at the Horrobins and Grundys and the other working class members in the cast.

I am not particularly fond of Emma; she is whiny and spiteful and envious. But she is a grafter, and, now in her mid thirties, has watched other people rise while she is still stuck at the bottom.

Her younger brother has married a woman with a career and a paid for house and he has a well paid career. That must really stick in her throat. Incidentally, why can't Chris lend her the money,? He must have a shit load of savings.

Plus Emma was left running around humiliating herself, and Ed's contribution? He left a message with Oliver and applied for a job as a carer.

Ed does work hard, but he is so passive. Life just happens to him, at one stage he did have some get up and go, but it appears to have got up and gone. Emma will be better of without him.

Emma will be better of without him

From a practical PoV probably yes.

40+ yrs ago Ed would have been in a regular job as a stockman or similar on a farm - probably not high paid but fairly secure and with acommodation. Deregulation of lower paid work enabled employers to make the jobs "self employed" passing all the risk and insecurity to the employer and turning worker's cottages into holiday cottages or simply selling them off.

Emma is the poster child for the generation suffering from this, lack of social housing, deregulation of housing etc. She can work her socks off forever but has watched the haves/have-nots gap widen and security move further away from her.

Meanwhile the people who sneer at her have married or inheritedenough privilege to at least give them as secure start in life - often free accommodation/jobs/shares in businesses.

This is being played out all over the country - its no wonder populist politics is high in the polls when the "Emma"s of this world have so little hope. Her parents had some hope of a better life, Emma's generation really doesn't.

It’s almost The Cathy Come Home de nos jours. Bit less grim, though.

I don’t think any of the three Grundy children will be better off with an Ed/Emma separation.

Chris may or may not have a lot of savings but he gave Emma almost £2k which she was not grateful for at all as she felt his rich wife should have contributed more. As Neil pointed out, Alice doesn't have wealth laying around in ready cash. Even if she did, I'm not sure why Emma felt the SIL she openly despises should have helped her out.

I know she hasn't been thinking straight this week but she seemed to lose all rhyme and reason in her expectation that the village would bail her out.

However the people who turned her down were unnecessarily cruel.

I'm a bit divided about this. What seriously puts me off Emma is the spite that comes into her voice when she talks about people like Fallon and Kirsty who she seems to think have no right to be with partners who don't lose their jobs through outright stupidity and criminality. On the other hand, it really wouldn't have hurt Ruth or Peggy to sit down with her, find out what was behind her request, and point her in the direction of some sensible professional advice.

What seriously puts me off Emma is the spite that comes into her voice when she talks about people like Fallon and Kirsty who she seems to think have no right to be with partners who don't lose their jobs through outright stupidity and criminality

Emma wasn't being reasonable but from her point of view Fallon married money and security, (she wouldn't be a house owner without Harrison's secure job and pension); Kirsty has married a house; Chris married a house; everyone else has secure accommodation courtesy of family.

Apart from Neil and Susan is there anyone in in Ambridge with a business/home that they didn't marry or inherit? Even Neil had a kick start with those acres he inherited although arguably he earned them over time.

Harrison and Fallon rented from Christine. It was a sensible-sized property, they were good tenants and got on with their landlady so when the time came she sold them the house at a reasonable rate

Thinking about this, the rent on teh cottage was too high for Ed/Emma wasn't it? I vaguely remember, before the advent of the affordable houses that they couldn't afford rents in Ambridge.

You could also spin it that they played on Christine's fondness for them and Harrison's job as a PC to take advantage of an old lady whose entire fortune was tied up in that house. She gave it to them for quite a generous discount.

I don't think it was as manipulative as that but they did purposely play up the whole "young local PC" story to persuade Christine to sell it to them cheap.