If The Archers characters were acted by dogs, Rob would be a Shih Tzu. Discuss Ambridge events here.

[PseudoBadger]

Avoided a non-sweary title.

The 'old' Jill would have killed him with kindness from the start. Now it's all domestic harmony Pip has no incentive to be defiant and either she'll see him for the idiot he is or he'll run for the hills - or Brighton.
Another Brighton visit must be due soon.

No-one is asking Jill to do the housework and cooking, and she would have a welcome in any of her other children's homes. Well, living at The Bull might be a squeeze, but she's not without choices. She's like an approval-seeking labrador -'Would you like a coffee? and I've made some scones!!' Pant, pant. 'Flapjack?? keep your strength up!!' Pant, pant, wag. 'There's a chicken pie in the pantry, it might be nice with some of last year's pickles." Pant, pant, tongue loll. it's power play as well - her competence in the kitchen versus Ruth's competence as a farmer. And she was absolutely comfortable enough in her position in the household to kick up a massive fuss about Toby and carry on alienating Pip. Not that I think for a minute that Ruth and Pip are likeable characters, but I really don't see this 'poor Jill, what a sweet, innocent, old lady." What a diverse world we live in, eh? !

And remember, Jill didn't want to move to Lower Loxley because Lizzie had staff and she would have no opportunities to look after everyone in a martyrish way which is what she enjoys.

Actually, I'm being unfair. In different circumstances, she would be an alpha businesswoman - she absolutely can't stand leisure time.

Yes Jill is a 'feeder'. She had her own cottage which she could be in if she wished, she LIKES cooking etc. being of use to the family.

Completely disagree with you Cromwell! She's an elderly woman who I suspect is feeling increasingly invisible and without a role. The one thing she knows she can do is cook, and I really do believe that she hopes she's useful. That doesn't mean they should all automatically down tools on the domestic jobs front. They totally take her for granted.

She's learned recently that she's not really allowed to voice her opinion. That she's an interfering and irritating nuisance. The only way to claw back some semblance of normality is for her to be seen to accept Pip's behaviour. Ruth won't tolerate anything else so Jill's between a rock and a hard place.

She would have a welcome in any of her other children's homes

True. But she would have no useful role with Elizabeth. Wasn't she very down about having nothing to do? We all need to be needed.

She's not being a martyr! I've never heard her complaining!

I disagree Vango. She doesn't need to be "invisible and without a role". There are plenty of the older generation in the village - Peggy, Christine, Carol, Jim - that she could have a social life with, she doesn't need to make herself so 'indispensable' to the family.
She is allowed to voice her opinion but she did it so vocally, vehemently and vindictively that Pip wasn't listening. It wasn't 'an opinion', it was a nasty piece of scapegoating.

How old is Ben?

She wasn't coping well though, living on her own R4. She's not like Carol, Jim or Peggy (who I can't bear!).

Jill wouldn't think she's made herself indispensable. David, Ruth and the kids have made her indispensable - remember they were all near to starvation and no-one seemed to know how to work the washing machine when she briefly moved to LL?

Re. Toby. Jill was hurt when Pip lied to her at the start of the FWB arrangement. She wasn't particularly vocal until after her own birthday when they all just assumed he could rock up to her party uninvited. If she became increasingly vehement it was only because no-one would even listen to her point of view. I'm looking forward to her being vindicated. But she's too well-mannered to rub their noses in it the way I might! She's not at all vindictive.

I agree vango.

I listen to Jill and hear all the hurt and loneliness old age can bring

While David and Ruth were having their chat in their room, Jill was probably going to bed feeling lonely and like she has no one to talk to

Out of all the conversations she's had with people recently I think Peggy is the only one who has allowed Jill to acknowledge her own feelings. Everyone else was telling her how she should feel. Maybe Lizzie too but I thought that chat was uncharacteristic tbh!!

I think Peggy is the only one who has allowed Jill to acknowledge her own feelings. Everyone else was telling her how she should feel.

Ironic, considering that Jill's 'feelings' were all about her sticking her nose in her grand-daughter's love life. Is Pip not allowed feelings too? Or is she only allowed Jill-approved feelings?
If Jill hadn't forced the issue then Toby wouldn't have been installed in Rickyard so her handling of the situation backfired massively.

Invisible Ben will be 15 in March!

Jill does not have to do the cleaning. If she didn't want to clean, the services of a cleaner are readily available, even in Ambridge, for the exchange of cash. She can't think of cooking as a chore, or she wouldn't put so much extra effort into producing cakes, biscuits, pickles and doubtless other things that are far in excess of what is needed to keep body and soul together. And she is allowed to voice her opinion, and Ruth and David had a great deal of sympathy with it. But persisting in it so vehemently was achieving nothing but creating a bad atmosphere, and making (stupid, annoying) Pip cling to (idiot) Toby harder. When people share a roof, you often just have to suck stuff up! We're not going to agree Francis and Vango!

Well I think the whole Jill Toby thing was totally uncharacteristic and based on the crappy sl of her hating grace. Can't really get excited about it!

Pip is really badly written and comes across horribly. I hope her inevitable heartbreak over Toby will lead to a personality shift

If Jill hadn't forced the issue then Toby wouldn't have been installed in Rickyard so her handling of the situation backfired massively.

Pip will find she's cut her nose off to spite her face. Jill clearly over-estimated young Pip's maturity.

Pip will find she's cut her nose off to spite her face.

That's fine. She will live and learn. That's what the young are supposed to do.
It's a mistake to think that you can live their lives for them. Advise, leave them to consequences and be around to pick up the pieces.

No-one's disagreeing that Jill has a choice re. the cooking/cleaning Cromwell. I've said a few times now that I think I understand Jill's motivation and I'm sure she wouldn't do it if she didn't want to.

That doesn't alter the fact that Pip and Ruth (mainly) are selfish, inconsiderate, self-centred takers, who see Jill as nothing more than the resident housekeeper. And I don't agree that she's allowed to voice her opinion, unless of course it's to agree with Pip or Ruth. She has to walk on eggshells around Ruth in particular.

She has to walk on eggshells around Ruth in particular.

No she doesn't! She has her own cottage and three other DC - plenty of places to live. Why stay at Brookfield if it's so awful. Unless you like being a martyr, of course.

Well I was shocked by the RUDENESS of the whole family swanning off and leaving Jill to do the washing up by herself. In any family I know, even if the 80+ year old had refused offers of help, they'd have had other members of the family, helping out and probably making the elderly relative who's just cooked a slap up meal, installed in a chair while everyone else clears up, washes up and puts stuff away.
If Toby was really trying to get into her good books he'd have been the first one to offer.

I think I've already answered your question in my earlier posts *R4!

*Why stay at Brookfield......."

Well that's complicated I guess and we'd have to re-visit Jill's married life and child-rearing years to fully appreciate her attachment to the place. I get that it's David and Ruth's home now, I really do. I'm only saying I have sympathy with her and I understand her reasons for not wanting to up sticks.

And, for the most part, it's not awful at Brookfield. The arrangement seems to suit them all even if it drives me up the wall that her hard work goes unacknowledged! Surely you could only accuse her of being a martyr if she spent all her time complaining to her friends or moaning behind R/D's backs?

If Jill needs to feel needed then she could go and do Good Deeds with the church or the WI. I don't see any great virtue in pandering to "selfish, inconsiderate, self-centred takers".

That's fine. She will live and learn. That's what the young are supposed to do. It's a mistake to think that you can live their lives for them. Advise, leave them to consequences and be around to pick up the pieces.

Helen and Rob? Pat's rapid acceptance didn't help that situation much?

I don't see any great virtue in pandering to "selfish, inconsiderate, self-centred takers".

That's my opinion of them, not Jill's.

Well IIRC David and Ruth tried very hard to keep Jill in a chair with her foot up. They were very sympathetic and tried hard to keep her still. She wouldn't listen so there's no need for our sympathy , there are people like that in RL too. (I wish my dm was more like that actually).