There's a slow hand clap for Knob. Will there be one for Toby? Discuss The Archers here.

[PseudoBadger]

Sorry for the poor title - the end of the last thread has arrived sooner than I thought and I haven't had the benefit of hearing all of the last 2 nights....

[Scarydinosaurs]

I thought Pip came across as her usual self entitled self- and poor Jill didn't get the right support from her useless son or daughter in law.

When Rooooth complained that Jill had spoilt her own birthday, I was shouting at the radio. Their DAUGHTER wrecked it. Even when clearly told Toby couldn't come, Pip jet arguing- that was as bad as the initial faux pas of inviting him.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Hear hear, Scary

[TheAntiBoop]

It's funny with pip. When new pip appeared we thought they were going to change her. But she is still a brat. Just with a worse actor

[Toomuchtea]

I'm struck by the fact that D and R (I expect nothing better from self-obsessed Pip) seem to have realised how utterly humiliated Jill felt about the chutney affair, helped of course by Susan's snidery and Carol's 'teasing'.

To them, it was nothing very much, and even though Jill told them quite plainly how badly she felt they didn't hear it.

Pip is an arse though. Why should she expect that if she gatecrashes Toby into a party that everything will automatically be ok? That all it needs is for everyone to experience the wonder that she has now seen in Toby and tra la! they too will be smitten.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I just heard the repeat. I thought Jill sounded almost panicky when Toby's name was mentioned.

[LyndaNotLinda]

Fucking D&R, saying that Jill ruined her own birthday. They know how Jill feels about the Fairbrethren. And it's so rude to invite someone to somebody else's birthday party!

[LyndaNotLinda]

Oops - should RTFT - that's exactly what Scarydinosaurs said. Sorry!

Just LA - where is Johnny going to move to if he moves out of Bridge Farm? In with Tom?

[TheAntiBoop]

Where is Tom living?

[TakingTheFifth]

Thanks for the new thread. Finally caught up with you all.

Pip was thoughtless and self-centred but no more than she usually is. Jill's reaction was way out of charecter and maybe due to long-held resentment at things that happened in the past with the fairbrother family. To be fair to Pip, she probably doesn't know the history and was surprised by the depth of feeling, as we were. Perhaps the Fairbrothers will reawaken some very old story lines.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Also didn't Pip lie to Jill about Toby? When Jill had already seen Toby sneaking around and knew about it but was asking Pip politely anyway?

[LyndaNotLinda]

Good point TheAnti. Didn't he live in a cottage with Kirsty until the wedding fiasco? I kind of assumed he'd gone back there

[ppeatfruit]

No Cecilede IIRC she said that they were just having fun or whatever, or was that to Ruth?

[Saffronesque]

(Back with new nn)

Drspouse, I think that Jill would have been slightly less upset had Rex appeared, rather than Toby. She had a chat with Rex iirc where he wearily condemned his brothers's affairs, just after she'd seen Toby sneak out of Rickyard. Add the intense humiliation she felt over jamgate and I think she actively hates Toby as much for himself as being fairbrethren. Whereas with Rex, it's just an aversion to the fairbrethren full stop.

[Fink]

It's kind of more interesting now that Pip's with Toby, because all of Jill's reaction can be put down to him being a prat (as shown in her conversation with Carol) and her feelings about the Fairbrothers in general are not as obvious to her dense family. Had Pip been with Rex it would have been much clearer to them that either she has got the starts of dementia or similar or she really can't stand the family.

Crap that they all readily agreed that had she still been with Matthew she would naturally have invited him without asking and no one would have minded. No one in my family had better try bringing uninvited boyfriends to my birthday!

[EmilyDickinson]

Poor Jill. She did sound upset about Pip's invitation to Toby, although I think that the upset came across as being cross. I do find it hard though to understand why she feels so strongly about it.

Is it always feeling second best to Grace with Phil and now feeling that Pip would rather hurt Jill's feelings than those of Grace's nephew? Hence Jill feeling second best all over again at the age of 86 long after Grace's death?

Or is it resentment that after Toby's father treated Elizabeth so appallingly his sons can just act like part of the family and no one but Jill thinks it's odd?

Or is she worried for Pip because Toby is so like Robin?

Or is it humiliation over the chutney?

Or is it that having seen how everyone was taken in by Rob and failed to realise how he was abusing Helen she feels that she should act on her gut instinct that Toby is trouble?

But I don't feel that it's really fair to blame Toby for being Grace's nephew or Robin's son. He hasn't done anything to hurt Pip - yet, and surely deserves the benefit of the doubt. Fallon and Will for instance are far steadier than their fathers and poor Jack would stand no chance if children carried the sins of their fathers.

The debacle with the chutney was an honest mistake, and one made as a result of Pip and Toby helping Jill. Indeed I'm not convinced that it was actually Toby's fault. Both Pip and Toby owned up to it (which was rather sweet). And I think that Toby is the type to feel he'd rather Jill was annoyed with him than Pip. Both Pip and Toby have apologised. If the flower and produce was so important to Jill then she should have checked that the jars had been set out properly. I'm fairly sure that Toby at least had never done it before.

In truth I feel that most of Jill's anger came from Pip not bothering to ask if she could bring Toby to Jill's birthday party. That was rude, and treating Jill like a small child who isn't capable of issuing her own invitations. I think that as people get older they can become sensitive to being treated like their views and opinions carry less weight or like they need to be handled and looked after. This must be particularly hard for Jill on the day that she becomes another year older, living in the house where she was once the matriarch, but where she is steadily becoming of less significance. Pip, who she was always close to, has moved out and is rarely without Toby. Josh used to help Jill with the bees didn't he? I get the impression that he isn't doing that any more? David and Ruth, after a rocky patch, are back on track and I don't think that David is confiding in and relying on Jill in the same way.

Kenton and Elizabeth are both busy and happy. Her best friend Carol briefly had a bit of a wobble over Anna's stress, but that's all okay now and Carol is quite an abrasive person anyway. I thought that her "teasing" of Jill over the chutney was really quite cruel.

Jill is someone who needs to be needed and just now I don't think that anyone really does need her. No wonder she feels sad.

[ppeatfruit]

But knowing older people , they can get het up over very little, or nothing at all; there's something in our dm's past that should be mentioned to her but both my sis. and I know we can't do it; her brain is just not as it was , she's 88 and it's sad but true.

[Toomuchtea]

My DM is a similar age to yours, ppeat, and her brain is exactly as it always was. I'm sorry that your DM's is not - that can't be easy for any of you.

[ppeatfruit]

Thanks Toomuchtea You're lucky , dm can get about alright, which is a blessing though.

[Scarydinosaurs]

Pip's lack of self awareness is breathtaking.

"I've always been able to talk to gran about my boyfriends"

YES! So when you bloody lied to her when she asked you outright- you can expect her to be fucking fucked off!

Will Pip grow up and become an abuser like Rob? They can be astonishingly similar.

[Minimammoth]

Surely Gill's aloud to feel strongly about something without being batty. She's a modern 86 year old, she can get assertive. She doesn't want a Fairbotherer at her party, too right...Go Gill I say.

[Putthetulipsthere]

Place marking - thanks for new thread, great title Pseudo

[Butteredparsn1ps]

Don't know why but I now have " its my party, and I'll cry if I want to" going round in my head...

[Cromwell1536]

If Rob has spent all the £10k that was Peggy's wedding gift to both of them (I"m assuming that the income from their work, while they were both working, covered rent, etc - although money must have been tight, since they were basically doing a single job-share, weren't they?) would Helen be entitled to try and get it back via a divorce settlement? If someone has blown a marital asset, does the other party have any comeback? - or will she just have to chalk it up to experience?

[CeciledeVolanges]

Cromwell a divorce settlement can't create new money out of nowhere, so it will depend on the financial status of the couple overall, if there is no money left the starting point is that Helen gets half of nothing.