Buying a listed property that is has had non-compliant work done to it

[HouseMoveRound2]

We are in the process of buying a G2 listed property with UPVC windows that the vendor has told us we’re installed without consent. We are unlikely to get any further money knocked off the asking price - is it worth getting indemnity insurance?

Interestingly the planning officer visited the property in the early 00s as the vendors had a garage replaced, they applied for planning with this project and so the LA has been round since the newer windows went in, and nothing came of it.

we are wanting to convert the garage into an annexe within the next couple of years so not sure I can avoid inviting them in!

They are not the Stasi quite. If the garage isn't listed then I'd be astonished if a routine garage related application triggered anything on the LB side.

Garage conversions and extensions generally can however be a bit problematic in some LPA areas though so if this is critical for you it would be worth checking any policy restrictions in the local plan.

Thanks kate really appreciate the pointers and will dig deeper into the local plan…

Normally the listing covers everything within the curtilage i.e. Everything on the land so any garden walls,outbuildings and garages are also part of the listing

We were told our outbuilding would not be included by conservation officer as it wasn't attached to the listed house or a wall but always best to check, anything attached to house or a wall would be.

So for us to change that outbuilding we need planning but not listed buildings consent but the planning takes into account house is listed.

Planning aren’t the same as a Conservation officer who deals with listed buildings.

That’s unusual. Listing usually encompasses everything within the LR boundary whether attached or not and irrespective of how remote

Although some areas and features have more significance and importance than others

Yeah you'd just have to make it back to like for like if someone grassed.
So idk a grand or something? Maybe two max? For one window?
And it would make it less heat efficient. So you might need different curtains/blinds.

I was expecting it to be included @BrownTroutBluesAgain but both the LPA and the council so no just planning, its for a shed / summerhouse but also included asking about a bedroom in garden and was told if standalone no listed buildings consent required. Planning and building regs as well only if sleeping in plus conservation area rules re trees etc. Though I think the planning takes into account its on grounds of a listed house so its similar requirements but one lot of forms.

Did you ask the Conservation officer aswell
Or have you done an official written query on whether Listed building consent was required

I’ll be honest. As an Architect who works in this area I’ve never come across a case like yours. Perhaps it’s regional

@BrownTroutBluesAgain Its written advice from a conservation officer. It says "If the new structure was to be attached to any listed curtilage/boundary walls or existing structures within the grounds that pre-date 1948, then the works would also require listed building consent, but if it is to be a stand alone structure, it would not." Though I would always check each time.

It could be it varies by area as when I phoned the Listed Property Association they wanted to know which area before answering questions but they gave the same answer. Though its like listing rules are done through planning here for standalone outbuildings as materials have to try to match house as far as possible.

Yes that 1948 deadline is key

If you have confirmation from the Conservation officer then that’s all you need
👍

Thanks, yes I did just double check as we have been given wrong advice from council planning in past but this says Principal Conservation Officer and is in writing.

Sounds like thats for adding new things rather than fiddling with existing things. Which makes sense really. Good news for me as i was thinking about adding a garage maybe.

SIL successfully researched and argued his case for (in his case) special window adjustments in his G2 listed home. Which were to be single glazing along with a few other points.

*BrownTroutBluesAgain *yes sorry, the technical names aren’t familiar to me, but I know they got LBC for the garage update, exactly which role came out to check the garage I don’t know though

Agree with advice not to invite planning in - friends of ours are having a nightmare having inadvertently alerted them to a breach and are ruing the day they asked for advice…

Afaik, the whole building will be listed - not just the exterior or front but not the back @Momrage. Just because it's only the exterior (or front) mentioned in the listing doesn't mean the rest isn't listed.

In the 1990s the previous owner of our grade 2 Georgian cottage applied for LBC to change a 1960s timber single glazed dormer window on the rear of a 1965 extension to upvc. The window isn't visible from the road. It was refused. Quite rightly imo.

This is why you have a solicitor!!! This is their job to sort out!!

@BrownTroutBluesAgain No it’s not. Curtiledge can be exempt and is subject to this paragraph on my LAs info site in listed buildings.

This is what the conservation officer wrote in the quotation marks below for adding a new outbuilding and I found online documents re our conservation area and listed buildings in our area which had details of materials. For sheds / summerhouse / garages here they normally accept painted in certain colours which are traditional or match the house weatherboard. If you are in a conservation area there are tree rules too, measure tree trunk at 1.5 metres and it's 12 times the radius is roots protection area. But if there's pre existing things this can sometimes be altered if not going below ground. We have big trees everywhere so this one was a bit of a challenge. Anything used for sleeping adds building regs. It's worth looking those up especially if using a flammable material like shingles or thatch, there are distances it has to be from things.

"In assessing any planning application we would be considering the impact of any proposals upon the setting of the listed building and the character and appearance of the conservation area.
If the new structure was to be attached to any listed curtilage/boundary walls or existing structures within the grounds that pre-date 1948, then the works would also require listed building consent, but if it is to be a stand alone structure, it would not. I would therefore recommend that any structure remains small in scale, discreetly located within the context and a stand alone structure. I would recommend that any materials employed harmonise with those utilised in the principal listed building / conservation area context"

Thanks
As I said
Listing usually encompasses everything within the LR boundary
OP has asked which is the correct process. ie Never assume otherwise

I live in a similar sounding listed property and would agree with the advice that enforcement is unlikely. The windows have been there some time without issue and Conservation departments have been cut to the bone. In some areas they won't even visit without you paying for it.

My concern would be that the property is probably covered in inappropriate work, particularly cement and modern paint. This can absolutely destroy your building by stopping it breathing and the timber frame secretly rots without you knowing. Yes I know as this has happened to mine.

If this really is your ideal property then you need to face that you will be spending the next decades righting any wrongs done to it to preserve the building for the future.

This is precisely the risk. It’s unlikely the windows will draw attention on their own thus requiring action, but when you come to do any further work it will come to light and at that point you’re on the hook.

unauthorized work to listed housings is a criminal offense, hence why an indemnity is pointless. You can’t indemnify against a crime. Also the responsibility passes to a new owner rather than remaining with the person who did the work.

id be v v hesitant to proceed.