Moving to Liverpool, commuting to London - is it mad?

[YouHaveAnArse]

We are living in London and renting - while we have a good LL who charges a decent rent, the news and the fact that estate agents are charging significantly more for flats in the same building is adding to the massive anxiety I get for six months a year about whether we will be made homeless. We have some family and health things going on at the moment which is further underlining how difficult it is to not be able to properly plan more than a year in advance as you don't know whether you'll have to move, or how difficult it is when you live five hours by train or a nightbus away from somewhere you now have to visit more often.

We can't afford to buy in London, unless it was shared ownership, which I'm not entirely sure is a good option. I don't care about the property ladder or building up equity, I just want to put down some money for a place that will be ours and not have to move again unless we really want to. We don't have or will have kids, we both have jobs which would allow us to move out of the city as long as we can attend our London offices in person once a week or fortnight - colleagues of mine are currently doing this and I've been asking how they've been finding it. And I've lived in London long enough that I would be more than happy getting to know a new city, especially if I feel I'm able to relax a little more on a day to day basis. We want to make a home there rather than the temporary feeling of renting which makes you feel like you can't really get yourself involved in the community and get to know it, even if part of me worries that we're just moving London's unaffordability problem to a different community?

DH is quite keen that any move would be to another city - neither of us drive, I want to live somewhere which has its own thing rather than being a dormitory community of London (plus buying/renting in the traditional commuter belt is not much cheaper, especially when factoring in train costs) both of us want the potential to change jobs rather than keep our current ones if we decide to do so which makes Manchester, Liverpool or Leeds/Sheffield seem like good places to start. I lived in Manchester for a while, but Liverpool looks like a good option - family were from there so I feel a bit of an affinity, it's cheaper to live there, it has a good feeling about it that makes me feel it could be a good place to settle. DH is happy with a similar size flat as the one we rent just now, I would be too, but the leasehold thing makes me wonder if it would effectivley feel like renting with the extra restrictions and potential hikes in cost. I don't have a problem with somewhere needing redecorating or having to plan to replace the kitchen over the next few years etc. but we don't have the skills to do anything major, we'd have to pay other people to do it for us.

I don't even know where to start looking other than 'where's near the station' or which areas are realistically an option to get to the train first thing. I think £100k would be a good realistic starting budget to look at in terms of a mortgage that's realistic for us to get and pay off quickly (we are 41 and 45) whilst also leaving us space to pay for other costs and room to weather any rate hikes and still live our lives, but it's hard to say until we start properly planning. There are lots of houses by Anfield that are well within that but I keep seeing people say it's a dodgy area - I never know what that means given that what people consider 'dodgy areas' near us in SE London are a) ones we're probably priced out of b) seem absolutely fine to me c) often seems code for 'working class' or 'too many chicken shops' - it's more that my experiences of Victorian terraces is that they're generally massively damp that puts me off!

This is a long-term thing to think about whilst we keep adding to our deposit funds, making ourselves look like good people for the bank to lend a load of money to, and dealing with other stuff, but any advice? Thanks and sorry for rambling, I'm just overthinking as usual :)

Yeah - that and it complicates things if you want to use your Lifetime ISA as I think it would be classed as a buy to let purchase if you're buying with a sitting tenant? Plus the idea of evicting someone really doesn't appeal on several levels.

How can you afford to rent in London but only borrow £100k? That's the equivalent of a joint in one of £25k?

If you don't want to drive I'd assume you'll need to live very central in whichever city you move to.

Hello! Yes, I’ve lived all over Liverpool from Tuebrook to Aigburth.

Funnily enough, when I lived on a ‘nice’ street in Aigburth, the house next door got raided for drugs! Not representative tho I should say – it’s a safe, quiet area with a proper community. Although personally I find Aigburth a bit lifeless for somewhere to live (although that’s just me – I know lots of people rate it).

Tuebrook wouldn’t recommend btw!

But there are some great areas in Liverpool where you can find an absolute bargain - great community, loads going on, buzzing atmosphere, everyone friendly, loads to get involved in. The bit where I am is thriving and the location is amazing.

I have done this but the issue arises when the amount the calculator gives falls far short of anything in the area - unless we can somehow pull a 30% deposit out of the air it pretty much rules out buying anything close to where we live now unless we go for shared ownership. This may change if there is a fall in house prices but it doesn't feel like a realistic plan.

I lived in Manchester for years and getting about by public transport and on foot was absolutely fine. It's when you move out of bigger cities that it becomes an issue.

We increasingly won't be able to afford to rent in London, that's the issue. The answer to 'how can you afford to rent in London' is 'because the alternative is living in a tent in our friends' back garden and they're going to want it back at some point'.

I’d move to a city that is closer to London, eg Coventry - on a major train line very easily commutable to London, and very easy to hop on train in other direction to Birmingham. You are going to miss London and nowhere can replace it.

@YouHaveAnArse but surely the calculators give you a rough idea of what you could borrow that you would be comfortable with. And that then gives you a rough budget to look at other areas outside of London which you are obviously open to hence the post. Even if these are areas in and around Liverpool. I wasn't suggesting you buy in London as you've already said how expensive this would be. But by getting an idea of what a realistic budget is will make it much easier when considering where you could move to and make it easier to consider any travel costs

I'll miss my friends, I'll miss being able to go to any shop I feel like going to if I want to buy something, but realistically I barely travel out of my postcode as it is. I work from home, I get the bus into the office once weekly, and I get the bus over to the next borough to see friends. Covid and, frankly, poor mental health has shrunk my life quite a lot as it has for many people - friends have said that the draw for them being here was spontaneity of social life and WFH etc has taken that away, and I get that. I lack the motivation to go out and do all the things London has because I take them for granted now. I'd miss city life for sure but I feel like I've spent long enough in this one city.

Heya, I just wanted to be a bit more positive. I have been looking at moving back North myself but at the moment have decided against. I come from the Wirral and when I first started work they screwed up the location and I ended up commuting from Lime Street into London and back..... basically if you're prepared for it it was fine! The trains are over 2 hours, on the very early morning train I used to half-sleep given it was so early and as it's the first station your seat is reserved or otherwise you'll be able to get one usually! Euston was a bit mad but I got used to which platform the train was likely to go from and was usually first on and seated. I used to save up some work to do 'offline' on my way back, or listen to podcasts/get a magazine. Two hours goes by pretty quickly.

I planned to book the Avanti tickets as soon as they were released, if you book directly with them you can change advance tickets before your travel date to another service and pay the difference if you need to, for example if you're ill.... but you can't get a refund. I actually budgeted the cost of an advance return at commuting times would be £90 a week, and if you're going on Friday's with an off peak return you wont be stuck to a particular train so that's good.

However, I wouldn't move back to Liverpool personally. Trains also run from Chester or Manchester and I would recommend those locations instead. Manchester especially is bigger, has more job opportunities, is better connected to places like Leeds/Sheffield should you want to find a job there (Leeds/Sheffield more of a trek from Liverpool) and also Chester. Manchester has a great vibe and I think feels less run down from Liverpool, but happily Liverpool is 40 mins to an hour away by train so you can always visit. You've also got the Manchester arena for big events etc. BTW do you have family up north anywhere now? If so I would try and be near them.

I also HATED the instability of renting (I remember once seeing planning permission outside our flat and a quick call to the landlord gave us the news we were being evicted to build houses instead). I think London can be quite insular but the North feels like you can get out and do a bit more exploring.

If I do make the move back I won't be daunted by the commute (think I'd need to go in 3 times a month). I used to generally do a lot of travelling for work and jumping on a train or two hours with pre-booked tickets is easy peasy. Hopefully next year the train strikes will be over though!

Good luck!

How about Rugby, Great Missenden, High Wycombe, Milton Keynes, Coventry. Northumberland or Leicester?

I just wanted to say, don't necessarily assume that you'd have to take a pay cut if you end up getting a job up north. I earn more up here than I used to when I lived in the south

But I didn't quote you? I don't read everyone's posts in loads of detail to remember who said what, and a few people have said similar things on this thread - which is the general attitude I've found on MN about area/house related snobbishness and stretching yourself.

Focusing on this post, your mention of 'really restricting' for example - how do you know that? Are you very familiar with the areas mentioned? Do you know that the OP cannot get what she wants for her budget, or maybe a wee bit more?

If she can, then your point makes no sense - why would someone actively want to pay more unless a nice house is a big priority?

I'm not annoyed , just pointing out facts. Using mortgage calculators is good advice, and if the OP finds that she is indeed 'really restricted' then she has to change plans. But it's odd to assume from the get go that she is. As I have said myself and many of my contemporaries while having a good income on paper choose to prioritise differently. We don't want a mortgage 'in line with rent' or less into retirement we want it gone, or very very tiny. Maybe this is difficult for you to understand, and we are very lucky to be in this position - but most people don't, as they think housing is the most important. An Englishman's home is his castle... I have certainly found that very true.

I think you need to take a breath and a step back.

Then get a realistic budget you are happy with.

Look at train schedules, reliability and prices over the whole country - in effect draw a big circle around London! The east coast lines tend to go to St Pancras/King’s Cross rather than Euston so would that be easier etc etc.

Then pinpoint cities and big towns that would have sufficient “life” and public transport that match up with the train above. What can you get for your budget in those places in areas where you can easily get to the main line station and therefore what you total commute and cost will be.

Then plan so visits over the next year and come up with a shortlist and move on from that. I

I'm in/from Liverpool. You can't go to London direct from South Parkway station if that's what you're thinking. You could change at Runcorn or Birmingham though I think.

Also I don't know why OP said that her friend goes from Liverpool to Kings Cross. There is no direct train to Kings Cross from Liverpool. It goes to Euston. Maybe she changes once there, or en route before she arrives in London.

DH is Anfield born and bred and my relatives lived there too years ago. His parents still live there and we visit very couple of weeks. We have lived for 4 years in London about 23 years ago and it was bad enough then in terms of affordability, it's beyond a joke now. So I do feel for you. We moved back up here 20 years ago, but avoided Anfield like the plague and now live in S Liverpool. We looked at Crosby and West Derby, but parts of them can be a bit mixed in terms of "dodginess" as they're close to more undesirable areas. Where I am in S Liverpool it's "naicer", I suppose. Prices immediately round here have gone crazy, and there are so many people from the south who have moved here who have probably contributed to that. There are plenty of non-Scouse accents I hear when walking in my local area.

I feel for people with children as the better schools way oversubscribed. People move up here thinking it will be cheaper and easier without a thought about schooling etc. No new schools have been built for many years and the population is increasing year on year so I don't know why people are so surprised. Even my local large Tescos is unbearable to shop in now, I tend to go there after 8pm when it's a bit quieter.

Anfield is not nice at all. Many years ago it was simply a working class area with hard working decent families in manual jobs and a real sense of community. It has not gentrified like some of the terraced streets areas. Which is why the housing is cheap. It's because it's run down and deprived. Many non-working families. In my inlaw's road and the areas around there is a problem with drug dealers and other crime and antisocial behaviour. It is not the place it was 40-50 years ago, sadly. I wouldn't feel particularly safe walking round there late at night, and it's not even walking distance to a station which is what you say you want. There are no nice bars and restaurants. Avoid.

The more affordable areas in the south of Liverpool are probably parts of Garston and Aigburth. Many of the teeny tiny terraced streets years ago which were very working class areas, sometimes even a little bit dodgy, have become more gentrified. It amazes me how there are professional people like doctors and senior teachers living in what used to be these old little houses originally meant for the working classes.

I feel you MAY have just missed the boat in terms of it being a major advantage moving here. The better places that have all you want have really increased in price. You would have to compromise a fair bit, and then you'd need to consider if the hassle of the commute is worth it. I think in your position I may reconsider and look for somewhere else similar that is starting to get popular rather than has already had the influx of southerners looking for more affordable housing.

Sorry, I did mean they commute from Liverpool to Euston, not King's Cross, but they're all pretty much close to each other anyway.

Re Liverpool – if you’re not yet too overwhelmed by all the suggestions OP!

If you would consider a flat, this duplex is just on edge of city centre (about 10-15 mins on bus to Lime St)

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/117642083#/?channel=RES_BUY

This terrace is also close to town – right next to the cathedral

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/86216205#/?channel=RES_BUY

Appreciate you’re not looking to buy immediately, but just to give you an idea of what you can get for your budget

If I was buying in this area I would look to make the move sooner rather than later tho in your position as prices have gone up even just in the last couple of years.

Not within 20mins walk of the station which is what the OP really will need.

I don't have time to provide a proper response right now but as a Scouser I wouldn't recommend a couple from London with no local connection to Anfield to buy or live in Anfield.

Definitely not!

The two posted above (duplex on Princes Park Road above & the terrace near the cathedral) would both fit that bill – and if OP is happy jumping on a bus rather than walking her options increase.

A bike could be handy too – the two above are both 10 mins to lime street by bike

Manchester to London is a direct train and costly Liverpool is more problematic

Yeah, I think Princes Road (the property linked to above) is due a massive resurgence actually. For many years it was run down, full of not very nice HMOs. When I used to occasionally have to walk home from town at 2am after clubbing, many of the taxi drivers wouldn't stop along there for you even if they had their lights on. But they've recently done a cycle path all along there. Princes Park is close by for green space. It's an easy run to town on the bus or bike, or even walkable.

If the flats are refurbished really well, as happened with lots of the properties around Sefton Park, then it could potentially become a very desirable area. It's not got too many local shops and restaurants, though, which is a downside. You'd have to go into town for that.