Have you ever collapsed a chain? How did it feel?

[Finallybreathingout]

Very long, sorry!

We are close to exchange on a house; we’re the bottom of the chain as we have already sold ours. Our vendors are buying a house of real sentimental significance to them - they only put the house on the market to grab the chance to buy it. So there is a LOT of emotional investment. They are really nice people and would live very locally, and have welcomed us to the community.

We had a long delay getting our final mortgage offer owing to underwriting issues so have already delayed things. We also changed solicitors as our original one was dreadful and we didn’t have confidence in them, so we have already been crap buyers, much to my mortification. But things were finally running smoothly.

Then enquiries came back and there are no building regs. To cut a very long story short, indemnities won’t cut it, the material value of the house is affected, and we’d need building work which is currently very roughly estimated at about 10% of the purchase price all costs included. We are weighing up whether to ask for a retention or just to pull out. We really didn’t want to do building work, so immediately we are in a situation we’d looked to avoid, and it will cause major inconvenience to the whole family.

Has anyone ever pulled out and collapsed a chain? Did you sleep at night? This is so difficult but I feel I’m putting the feelings of total strangers above my own self interest. We like the house very much but could carry on renting and find another without all these issues. Everyone else involved has their plans ruined, and all the same sunk costs wasted as us. This is awful, and because it’s now so last minute, even if we ask for the retention we’re going to look like those people who gazunder. We’ve already said we would take the fact that the house is old and needs a new boiler and probably rewiring on the chin and not negotiate over all that.

It's time to take emotions out of this and look at cold hard facts.
The house is not what they said it was.
It will require a lot more work (expensive and stressful) than you imagined.
You are paying more than it's worth.

I would pull out, this is your house purchase, you will have to carry the burden of it and I wouldn't settle for anything less than what you wanted unless you are willing to put in the work.

Don't make a house purchase to make your vendors happy.. You don't owe them anything.

The council obviously isn’t going to knock on our door and ask whether we have an illegal loft conversion but if we need any sort of future work doing to our house that requires building regs we are vulnerable to being busted, and we don’t just lose an extra living space in that case, we lose our essential bedrooms. Totally agree that indemnities are useless.

And obviously we don’t feel great about our children sleeping in a badly insulated room with a window that is dubious in safety.

Yes we pulled out on the day of exchange. The next door neighbour decided to reopen a boundary dispute that had been settled a decade prior. We declined to make it our problem, as she wanted £30k to settle.

No idea what happened above us - we were buying from a couple divorcing and desperate to go their separate ways, but we completed the chain below us and moved in with my in laws temporarily. Put us in a good position for the house we eventually bought.

I did not feel guilty in the slightest, why would I make this my problem? It would have taken years to settle and we couldn't have got legal insurance as a known issue. While I sympathise with the vendors, guilt wasn't happening

Building regulations were introduced in 1985 - so if the conversion happened after that - they are in breach. However, it is highly unlikely that a council can enforce returning the building to it's previous state as there are time limits that apply (2 years from memory - but you would have to verify - much is written on this and the uselessness of the indemnity policies). The indemnity policy is never likely to be applied to adjustments required for safety or stability of the house - the three main issues are likely to be: fire escape route, stability of the beams on the top floor, alterations made to the roof. It is unlikely that a loft conversion done some time ago, without building regulation approval will reach the current building regulations as they have changed over the years so if you were to seek approval now, it is likely that the work would have to be redone and highly likely that you would loose much of the usable space (from experience rather than knowledge of your property - that might not in fact be the case) .... so in practice, you are buying a house with 2 bedrooms less than you bid on and some storage space that is unlikely to be approved for regular use as a bedroom with a future cost of a full loft conversion to bring it up to the number of bedrooms that you wanted. So if the house was priced at 5 bedrooms and you now have three, what is the difference in price for a similar house without the loft conversion? Or - what is the cost of redoing the conversion (likely to include replacing the floor) and if you reduce your offer by this much, can you fund that conversion, do you want to?

If you do not want to do this - then it is not your fault that the chain breaks down, the sellers were ill-advised to market the house at a 5 bed room house if the conversion was not valid and this should be obvious to any professional involved in the housing market, there is so much written about it.. no one could deny knowing this was an issue.

Yes, me!! I was selling through Foxtons 🙄 I discovered that they had been fibbing about the buyer being a mum moving for good schools. It was one of their investor mates and I felt I was being short changed by £100k. I pulled out days before exchange. The Foxtons manager tried to guilt trip me into changing my mind. Then, he gave up and told me that I was the worst client he had ever dealt with. Since it came from Foxtons, I took it as one of the greatest compliments of my life 😂

This is our concern - being forced to remove the work because it’s not up to standard and is threatening the stability of the house. We know it’s not up to standard and needs redoing more or less from scratch, and have a very finger in the air quote from a reliable builder friend. We need the bedrooms so wouldn’t have the option of losing them. They present as old-style attic bedrooms but they’re not, so when we viewed, we thought the house had all the space we need. We only realised it was a loft conversion when we had our survey done.

And we don’t have the money in hand; we either need a retention on our original borrowing but still to borrow the same amount, or to lower our deposit -
which probably wrecks our mortgage offer, and I’m talking to the broker today. The house with its original bedrooms is still lovely and sizeable so probably minus a retained amount we’d be paying a fair price.

But it’s hassle, and risk that the building work costs spiral, or that we end up needing a new roof, or any of the other random stuff that building work uncovers. And we’re borrowing more than we would be just to buy the original house.

Fair play!

Unfortunately, as others have said, it’s time to pull out. They are just storage spaces.

You won't be forced to remove or re-do the work by the council, assuming it's been like that for at least a couple of years, even if the council visit the house at a later stage relating to any future building work you may undertake.

But, it's the safety aspect that would concern me the most, followed by the unknown extent of poor quality work. There is only so much that can be seen until you start hacking off plaster and taking floors up.

You absolutely can walk away if that's what you want to do. It will be rubbish for the chain but that's not the reason to go ahead. Regret is a terrible feeling, especially when it comes to such a significant investment. personally I would never buy a house without building regs. future selling etc is all compromised by not having them.

You say you've been through this before with building regs. Do you really want to go through that again? (Fool me once and all that)

But - you might not get the same mortgage deal again since interest rates keep climbing. you may not be able to borrow the same amount again for a few years, so if the cost of putting right is offset by the reduction in borrowing capabilities, it's something to think about.

It is also worth thinking about the fact that many houses would fail existing building regulations but have been standing for decades if not longer.. think old cottages, tiny staircases, wonky floors, wavy roofs and tiny loft spaces. We lived in a Georgian Manor house growing up that had a stairs into the loft space that would not meet building regulations but had been standing and in constant use for 250 years, originally used as servants quarters. However, the original beams may not have been designed to take the weight of the floor boards that were added but if it's been in place for 20 years and used for all of that time without any signs of structural issues (cracks in the ceiling / walls / movement in the roof).. then it is unlikely that it is going to fall down. Many many houses are under insulated too .. not just converted ones.

I personally wouldn’t be worried by the loft conversion if it was done ages ago. Most things done years ago would no longer be compliant with building regs. It comes with purchasing an older property. Most indemnity policies are less than useless and are mostly provided to reassure panicked buyers and to comply with the lenders requirements.

The main issue is that it’s been marketed incorrectly (although probably unknowingly) and if the lender has lowered their valuation of the property I would be asking for a reduction in price if you still want to go ahead but I wouldn’t be bothering with a retention and organising remedial works - no way. The important thing to find out is when the conversion was done and this should help you make a decision.

You won’t be “busted” by anyone if you carry out work in the future. 😅 This is not a thing. It might cost you more money if the works are for the loft space to get it compliant with BR but that’s all that would happen and you’d account for that in the reduction in price when (if) you buy it.

Having said all that, I used to be a conveyancer and at the end of the day, it’s your money and your decision. I had SO many people who pulled out last minute, collapsing massive chains that had been in it for months and months so you are not the first and certainly won’t be the last. Don’t feel guilty at all if you decide you don’t want to go ahead (and my personal advice would be to email your solicitor and then block the sellers and the estate agents numbers who will definitely try to convince you otherwise).

Your post is not actually clear. Building works only need to comply with rhe regs in place at rhe time. Not regs today. Obviously. Or everyone would be knocking shit down annually every time the regs change , but you don’t seem to know when it was built or what the regs were then and that’s the key bit of info you require.

you need to find this out. What you need to know is was it compliant at th time it was built. If so it’s perfectly legit and there is no issue here.

I also have concern about your old boiler and rewiring comment, , you can’t expect a new boiler unless buying a new build, other than that only a working boiler which has been serviced in the last 12 months. No one negotiates for a new boiler, no one sensible anyone unless the boiler is unserviced or failing. What makes you think it needs rewiring, is their scorch marks on the walls, flickering lights, a burning smell? You don’t Just rewire for the help of it.

Maybe it’s how it’s written but you sound both Ill informed and nervous

are you a first time buyer?

You could ask the sellers to apply for a Retrospective regularisation application... that would assess the works against the regulations that were in force at the time they were done - however, that would delay the chain and if it uncovered rectification work requirements - might make the chain collapse anyway..

Op. Have you had a full survey done, a structural one? Your post is so all over the place. There are two separate issues

doesnt mean current building regs. Totally irrelevant , needs to meet the regs at the time.

unstable and unsafe, who told you this? Did you have a structural survey done ? If so then pull out. Now. If not then get it done.

i live in an old period house, it’s never met any building regs ever. It’s irrelevant . But I had a structural survey and it’s sound. It’s survived for 400 years so far. You cannot look at older properties and judge against todays standards.

if you are just scared then pull out sooner rather than later, if you want everything new like boiler, wiring, meeting current regs, then buy a new build. It’s your only option .

I am a lawyer and if this was me I would run a mile.. I think you go back with the findings and say in the circumstances you have no alternative but to pull out. It is a massive red flag - either they did this work without Building Regs or they bought the house without caring/checking. This is probably the tip of the iceberg (what else has been done on the cheap that isn't yet evident).

Even if the Council didn't do anything about it - you would not be able to sell it yourself. Plus if there is any future liability arising from these works (fire, collapse, subsidence, accident etc.) you are not going to be insured for that as you have been put on notice.

Honestly it would be madness to go ahead - unless the plan is to completely remodel/rebuild and fix this stuff.

They are bound to be upset but I think you have to be factual. You are also heartbroken but you simply cannot afford/ have the ability to fix the problems that have been found.

“The date of the work isn’t clear but obviously post-dates the introduction of regs based on the builder and surveyor’s views. But we’re just being told ‘the rooms have been there for years, and there’s no way the council could make you stop using them’ (which is untrue).”

How long have the vendors been in that house and did they have the loft converted? There should be all sorts of bills from then, usually kept with the deeds.

What’s being a lawyer got to do with it, 😂 and such a nonsensical Ill informed post to with such erroneous info.

I’ve already said we’re not FTB and my point about boiler/electrics was exactly that we have NOT considered any sort of negotiation based on the need to sort both out. The boiler is close to needing replacing and we know there’s a chance we’ll need to electrical work given the age of the house based on our survey, although no reason to think it would need rewiring. We are not nervous buyers of a two hundred year old house. We’ve just sold one. We’re not going to start worrying about perfectly normal expenses of a period property.

I’ve also said that no one appears to know exactly when the work was done but it seems most likely it was in the 90s, so it wasn’t compliant with the regulations at the time. But it’s also not compliant now and our solicitor is perfectly clear that it therefore is not satisfactory, and the rooms should not be used as bedrooms or described as such.

We are over-stating the likelihood (very very low) of an injunction against the works on safety grounds I know, but probably in reaction to being repeatedly told by the agents that there is no action that can be taken after a year of completion, because it’s just not true, and it’s a risk we’re taking on.

We would need the money to redo the work as we need it to have that many bedrooms and be able to sell it as such. So even with a reduction to the selling price, we need to have the money to do that, which is where a retention would come in. We can’t just coast along knowing we have this issue.

Don't buy a lemon to facilitate someone else's dream.

@Thefriendlyone it means I have an understanding of liability which you clearly don't.

Not a property lawyer I would suspect!

It depends how much you love the house but based on what you’ve said I would likely pull out. If you do, try not to feel guilty. You offered in good faith on a house that wasn’t what it was sold to you as. This is on the estate agent. Good luck, whichever you decide

My posts are probably ‘all over the place’ because I tried to avoid a mega first post and also don’t want to totally out myself.

Facts are:

We are not nervous FTBs, and are used to period properties. This house has some damp, it has some slightly dodgy looking electrics and the boiler is near the end of its lifetime. None of that bothers us and I only ever mentioned it to demonstrate that we’re not that sort of buyer. Sorry if that was unclear.

We’ve had a full structural survey, which noted that the house is in general is pretty good nick for its age, and has been maintained well. But also pointed out that it was a loft conversion, which due to the style of house hadn’t jumped out at us, and therefore we needed to check building regs in place.

The work was done by the people who lived there before the current owners. The current owners don’t know exactly when the work was done and they have asked the people who did do it, who reckon it was the 90s. The fittings look fairly modern and the surveyor thinks this is a fair guess. There appears to be no paperwork our vendor has with any details beyond that. Our own vendors did a small porch extension very recently and got no building consent for that, so I suspect when they bought they weren’t too bothered about the paperwork, and they’ve been there 20 years.

Our lender now knows the house doesn’t have building regs for a loft conversion so has changed the details of the number of bedrooms and told us they will not recognise any insurance against the change. We can’t market it as anything other than the original bedrooms so we are paying for a house we’re not getting at our current offer price. Our solicitor advises us to get retrospective consent so we can, in due course, sell the house without these problems.

A reliable builder has checked it out and says it needs to be totally redone to meet current buildings regs. We haven’t checked what the regs were when built to see whether the work would be less significant in that case, but of course we don’t know the date so not sure that’s even an option. Given the materials used the builder is sure it was done after the early 80s so some regulations would definitely
apply. The floor has just been laid on top of the existing loft floor and the dormer is unsupported, so both issues of potential
safety.

We are NOT worried about this because we want a new build, or because we seriously think someone will come along and tell us to take it down. We are worried because legally we’re not buying the house we need,
because in order to sell it we’ll need to spend quite a lot of money we don’t have, and go through building works we don’t want to do and inconvenience ourselves hugely, and because in the very unlikely event of an injunction being served, we would no longer have enough bedrooms.

Despite all this we are still trying to decide whether we DO go ahead if we can make the money work as we like the house, but I fundamentally am nervous that my motivation is less that this is the only and best house for us, but more not wanting to upset people we don’t know.

You would be able to use the rooms but they should have been marketed as loft rooms and the house priced with 2 less rooms. Buying house is a business transaction and you send to lose a significant amount of money so please don't feel guilty about pulling out. You could ask for large reduction in price, live with it as is and plan to do the work down the line. Or just walk away. Whatever you do don't be guilted into paying the full price. Good luck op.