Inequality in Devon and Cornwall

[GraceJonesBiggestFan]

So there have been a lot of threads about moving to the South West recently. Many including people who have moved down and criticised the local people for being insular or lacking aspiration. Many also including comments from people like me who are offended at the suggestion and have tried to explain why local people might feel incredibly upset at the awful inequality in Devon and Cornwall, and frustrated with the lack of empathy shown by people who’ve moved down with a ton of money.

So I thought I’d break it down on a new thread, so it’s not something personal against individual posters seeking advice.

The TLDR is this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-61241981

My family have lived within the same 2 villages for over 500 years. In that time they were all collectively employed by the local landowner (Clinton Devon Estates, in various iterations over the years). They all worked as farm labourers, domestic service, blacksmiths etc. They never owned property because a) they would never have earned enough and b) they had housing provided as part of their remuneration. It was hard work, but to be fair to Lord and Lady Clinton they gave jobs for life and when for example my Grandad retired, he was able to continue living in his family house for a peppercorn rent.

My grandparents were both very sharp, but both worked from the age of 12/14 to put food on the table. So no opportunities for betterment. My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer. My sisters and I were all recognised by our primary school teachers as being more than capable of going to the local grammar, but the bus there was £60 a term and the uniform £120. There was absolutely no way my parents could afford this. I spent much of my childhood growing up in a caravan in a field, but still achieved 11 As and A*s at GCSE (back then this was incredibly unusual).

The kids in my class who went to the grammar school and then went on to university were entirely the children of parents who had moved down from the South East. Their parents sold houses in London, bought what seemed like a mansion in Devon. They paid for their children to have additional tuition to pass the entrance exams, paid for them to do music, sports and language lessons. Supported them financially to go to university and do unpaid internships.

I don’t begrudge them this at all. If I had the means, I would do the same for my daughter.

But I hope it in some way explains why it’s not a “lack of aspiration” that holds people here back. The inequality in Devon and Cornwall is horrific and has gotten unbearably worse in the last 2 years. People recognise inner-city poverty and deprivation, but the poverty and inequality in Devon and Cornwall is statistically much worse. Consider that if you live in poverty in London, you at least have access to many universities and can continue to live at home rent free. If you grow up in Devon or Cornwall, your options for studying and living at home are much more limited. Most people born and bred here therefore earn minimum wage. Their parents weren’t home owners themselves (so no help with buying), but are now competing with people who have grown up in the South East with all the opportunities for social mobility there are there, with all the equity from their home ownership, with much higher wages etc.

I see it now again. The kids with the rich parents who moved down during the pandemic, now lining up a ton of extra-curricular activities so their child again gets the grammar school places. The local kids left behind to be laughed at as “lacking aspiration”. The parents in their cars that cost more than most people here will earn in 8 years. The wellies that cost more than my own car. The music, sports and language lessons that cost more than most parents receive in universal credit. Getting turfed out to live in B&Bs because your landlords selling up (for extortionate London prices) or turning your home into an air bnb. We’re not “unfriendly” or “insular”, we’re just utterly heartbroken.

Okay then, all those public toilets, hotels, gift shops, restaurants and so on in Devon and Cornwall... who do you think is going to do those jobs? They're all minimum wage, and the tourism industry relies on those workers. Where are they going to live if everywhere is priced out of their range? It is pretty much the same situation as low-paid workers in London, but with worse transport and mainly seasonal work.

As someone pointed out, the people that work in the lowest paid jobs (which are vital for a functioning society) need somewhere to live. Community is really important and that's what is being lost. It's more than just economics, it's the very heart of what is needed to make an area thrive.

Yes it's the death of the local community what I am most concerned about not being able to visit a beach. It will all be gone one day though, no point in me moaning about it.

Exactly it

Some of my family were immigrants in the 1800s , that doesn't mean I have a sob story and I don't think OP is "privileged" for wanting to stay in the area. We don't all have to be atomised and severed from any sense of a community.

If I was local person working in the trades down in Cornwall and Devon, I'd be charging those second home owners an absolute bomb for any work done on their property. The local people deserve better and much better wages to continue to afford to live locally.

The word 'community' keeps coming up over and over again.

I think on this thread that many believe that Cornwall's community is made up of people that have lived there for X amount of generations and that's it. This is compounded by many reports of local people being unfriendly to newcomers and not welcoming them into the community.

So local people restrict who is and isn't allowed in the 'community' and then complain that the 'community'' is being destroyed when local people can no longer afford to live there. The locals aren't interested in welcoming outsiders in to maintain the community, instead they want special privileges when it comes to housing stock so the local chosen ones can all stay living there. If they don't get these privileges then they accuse outsiders of destroying the 'community'.

This is just so incredibly closed minded, insular and founded on a desperate attempt to retain privilege for the lucky few who happen to have been born in a beautiful area. Welcoming outsiders and making a real effort to integrate would be something any place that was serious about creating a more sustainable sense of community would do, but many local people have absolutely no interest in this because it doesn't serve their self interest in retaining Cornwall for the locals.

'Being born in a beautiful area' is not privilege; certainly not one comparable with wealth, class, sex, race.

Wanting to close to your family and friends is not some sort of unreasonable, gammony demand. Locals don't want to stay in Cornwall/Devon because it's 'pretty' - they want to stay there because it is their home.

Of course it's a privilege, what a ridiculous statement! Unacknowledged privilege is the worst kind as how can you even attempt to work towards equality and fairness when people don't even acknowledge quite blatant privilege. If it's not a privilege then why are so many parents desperate to move there and raise their children there?

Being able to stay close to family and friends is another privilege. If you can do this and stay in a beautiful area then it's a real double whammy as there are lots of people that have neither. You can work hard and earn privilege but to assume you should just get to retain them by virtue of where you were born is the epitome of entitlement.

Wanting to close to your family and friends is not some sort of unreasonable, gammony demand. Locals don't want to stay in Cornwall/Devon because it's 'pretty' - they want to stay there because it is their home.

My eldest ds wanted to stay close to us when he joined the workforce too but couldn't afford to stay in the nice town he's grown up in. House prices have rocketed everywhere.
So he moved to another city an hour away where he could get the job he wanted and the rental price he needed. People in all parts of the country can't necessarily stay in the places they grew up in - that's life. It doesn't only deserve sympathy when it's in a tourist area. We don't see him often as he's busy working and can't afford the transport costs - we can't go to his place as it's a tiny house share so we just occasionally go down and take him out for lunch. I would love for him to be around the corner. His siblings will probably have to do something similar.

He is working hard to hopefully be promoted and maybe in ten years he'll be able to move back home. But maybe not - I've never once heard him moan about it though or blame rich people buying up the housing stock in our town.

When I was talking about community, I was talking about people living there as their permanent home. I wasn't making a distinction between people that had always lived there and people that had moved in from other areas. That's a different issue if they're not able to integrate. My sympathy lies with people that have built a life, not being able to live in a fully functioning community / society because half the properties are empty most of the time and unavailable. They can be to own or rent.
It doesn't change the fact that Devon & Cornwall have additional challenges to the ones most areas also have (second homes in particular).
For me it's less about who should / shouldn't be there, but more about looking at solutions that can start to remedy these issues. Of course people have to move areas for a whole host of reasons. But it seems this crisis could have been avoided and that's a real shame.

@Bumpitybumper you have a completely unrealistic idea of what it is to live in a rural or coastal community in the SW.

The word 'community' keeps coming up over and over again. Why do you disapprove of communities so much?

If it's not a privilege then why are so many parents desperate to move there and raise their children there? Because they have unrealistic expectations based on a few pleasant holidays – or they are in the fortunate position to be able to afford a second home and private education.

The locals aren't interested in welcoming outsiders in to maintain the community, instead they want special privileges when it comes to housing stock so the local chosen ones can all stay living there. Untrue, as I have explained time and time again.

Being able to stay close to family and friends is another privilege. No it’s a fundamental aspect of sustainable communities and a right that UK signed up to under the SDGs. Just because we have a housing crisis across many UK communities doesn't justify making things worse. There is no shortage of houses. There is an excess demand among the wealthy - and that can be quite simply managed.

Many believe that Cornwall's community is made up of people that have lived there for X amount of generations and that's it. Nobody is saying that, please listen: the issue is first and foremost second home owners and holiday lets whose occupants add little or nothing to the local community.

Many local people have absolutely no interest in this because it doesn't serve their self interest in retaining Cornwall for the locals – non-locals are guests in our communities and should behave as such, if they did they would find they are more than welcome. Unfortunately many seem to have your attitude where money trumps everything else.

@Bumpitybumper Have you ever lived in the SW?

My cousins, all London born and bred, have all had to move out because they can't afford homes here. Glad to hear you think they should be given priority over everyone not born in London.

@Tryhard40 My eldest ds wanted to stay close to us when he joined the workforce too but couldn't afford to stay in the nice town he's grown up in.
So he moved to another city an hour away where he could get the job he wanted and the rental price he needed.

At 16 my eldest DS had move to the nearest city two hours away just to be able to do the A-Levels he wanted.

My youngest DS has an hour commute each way every day to be able to study the A-Levels he has chosen and it costs us £500 per term. But hey he's used to it, school was over an hour each way every day.

These are children - not adults entering the workforce.

Londoners literally cannot cope with one thing not being about them, lol

Interesting. My dad passed the 11+ in the late 60’s. Grew up extremely poor in the midlands, he was the youngest of 9 children, his dad was severely wounded in the war and couldn’t work, his mum worked as a cleaner. He didn’t have any tuition; if it existed there’s no way they would have been able to afford it.
He ended up doing an apprenticeship and getting a degree on day release from work. Ended up on a six figure salary. Had to move away from where he grew up for the opportunity though.

My youngest DS has an hour commute each way every day to be able to study the A-Levels he has chosen and it costs us £500 per term. But hey he's used to it, school was over an hour each way every day.

Is that unusual? I assumed that was the norm for many kids.

Is true cos I talking from personal experience. Was on refuge outside London and housing there for women from there but nothing in London. London victims we go back to DV or what you say, it's years in slum b&b or slum private rent. I mean real slum.
Hard anywhere and waits for rehousing but London very worse and lotsa the DV help places admitted London worse place to need help. Look at how many DV murders in London happen. Cos no rehousing. I looked at loadsa places when tried to leave. On Cornwall DV victims get rehoused in Cornwall. Maybe small wait but not 5 years or longer on slum temp.

At 16 my eldest DS had move to the nearest city two hours away just to be able to do the A-Levels he wanted.

My youngest DS has an hour commute each way every day to be able to study the A-Levels he has chosen and it costs us £500 per term. But hey he's used to it, school was over an hour each way every day.

And some would say it's your choice to continue living in an area which causes these logistical problems in your dc's life. Couldn't you have moved closer to their colleges?

My dd, also 16 has many school friends about to move away to different colleges to support the needs of their chosen subjects. This isn't exclusive to coastal towns etc.

It isn't a race to the bottom. We all make sacrifices in life surely - it's how you deal with them that counts. Your ds had to move to get the education he needed/wanted. That's great - he'll probably end up quite a resilient person.

personally I don't think it's a good thing to have families spread all over the country as younger generations are priced out. My parents are getting older & their health is starting to fail. things would be far more complicated if they lived hours away.

I've re read the original post and I don't get that the aim was to say only local people could be there.
More trying to draw attention to the lack of opportunity that means local people cannot compete with people coming into the area, for many reasons that particularly effect Devon and Cornwall.

People move into my town all the time from London and towns nearer to London as their money goes further. But I can't say that on top of that, we have the other pressures which make Cornwall and Devon particularly troublesome for people living there day to day.

In Cornwall DV victims can go on housing register. Maybe a wait but allowed to get somewhere in end. In lots of London not even allowed on list.

Homeless including DV sent to slum B&Bs or slum homeless temp for years or sent 100s miles away from London to 12 month private let then homeless in area where know no one and away from support.

100 times worse on London.

@Bumpitybumper In Cornwall in 2021, there were more than 10,000 properties listed on Airbnb for holidaymakers, this doesn't include the 2nd homes people don't rent out and stand empty. There are 41 listed to let on right move where the rent is less than the gross income of someone on the NMW (£1400pcm). You're okay with this?

Hour commute each way. London that's normal cos most Londoners not living central. Used to have 1 and half hour commute so 3 hour round trip across London. That was tube. Lots of poor Londoners in outer London can't afford tube or train and have to get bus so person saying can't imagine London having long commute talking rubbish.

Nor do I