Inequality in Devon and Cornwall

[GraceJonesBiggestFan]

So there have been a lot of threads about moving to the South West recently. Many including people who have moved down and criticised the local people for being insular or lacking aspiration. Many also including comments from people like me who are offended at the suggestion and have tried to explain why local people might feel incredibly upset at the awful inequality in Devon and Cornwall, and frustrated with the lack of empathy shown by people who’ve moved down with a ton of money.

So I thought I’d break it down on a new thread, so it’s not something personal against individual posters seeking advice.

The TLDR is this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-61241981

My family have lived within the same 2 villages for over 500 years. In that time they were all collectively employed by the local landowner (Clinton Devon Estates, in various iterations over the years). They all worked as farm labourers, domestic service, blacksmiths etc. They never owned property because a) they would never have earned enough and b) they had housing provided as part of their remuneration. It was hard work, but to be fair to Lord and Lady Clinton they gave jobs for life and when for example my Grandad retired, he was able to continue living in his family house for a peppercorn rent.

My grandparents were both very sharp, but both worked from the age of 12/14 to put food on the table. So no opportunities for betterment. My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer. My sisters and I were all recognised by our primary school teachers as being more than capable of going to the local grammar, but the bus there was £60 a term and the uniform £120. There was absolutely no way my parents could afford this. I spent much of my childhood growing up in a caravan in a field, but still achieved 11 As and A*s at GCSE (back then this was incredibly unusual).

The kids in my class who went to the grammar school and then went on to university were entirely the children of parents who had moved down from the South East. Their parents sold houses in London, bought what seemed like a mansion in Devon. They paid for their children to have additional tuition to pass the entrance exams, paid for them to do music, sports and language lessons. Supported them financially to go to university and do unpaid internships.

I don’t begrudge them this at all. If I had the means, I would do the same for my daughter.

But I hope it in some way explains why it’s not a “lack of aspiration” that holds people here back. The inequality in Devon and Cornwall is horrific and has gotten unbearably worse in the last 2 years. People recognise inner-city poverty and deprivation, but the poverty and inequality in Devon and Cornwall is statistically much worse. Consider that if you live in poverty in London, you at least have access to many universities and can continue to live at home rent free. If you grow up in Devon or Cornwall, your options for studying and living at home are much more limited. Most people born and bred here therefore earn minimum wage. Their parents weren’t home owners themselves (so no help with buying), but are now competing with people who have grown up in the South East with all the opportunities for social mobility there are there, with all the equity from their home ownership, with much higher wages etc.

I see it now again. The kids with the rich parents who moved down during the pandemic, now lining up a ton of extra-curricular activities so their child again gets the grammar school places. The local kids left behind to be laughed at as “lacking aspiration”. The parents in their cars that cost more than most people here will earn in 8 years. The wellies that cost more than my own car. The music, sports and language lessons that cost more than most parents receive in universal credit. Getting turfed out to live in B&Bs because your landlords selling up (for extortionate London prices) or turning your home into an air bnb. We’re not “unfriendly” or “insular”, we’re just utterly heartbroken.

Cornwall is a much more interesting place now than when I first arrived in the early 1960s and even when I returned in 1990. I love it, and the people here. The long time residents, and the new comers both. But it doesn't blind me to the reality of life or the social issues.

(Nb. No one has ever made a farmer joke to me and I have yet to become a target for sexual predators. I work in a politics-related area, and my Cornish parents were very politically active. But maybe that was all a joke and I've missed it...)

@MerryMaidens my last post wasn't aimed at you, cross posted, sorry. In response to your question, I think that being born somewhere should matter more than having just " a job", especially if your family are there still.
If somebody is moving to nurse or teach or persue specialist ares of education that's one thing. Getting social housing on the basis of a seasonal cleaning or casual job is daft to me. I don't claim to know all the answers though! (Opposite!)

I don't want the tamar border control in force! To live in Cornwall is to witness an annual living human tide. Winters are quiet and Cornish people enjoy peaceful chilly beaches and cleaner air, with the summer comes a cacophony of culture as we welcome our guests and all the wonderful diversity they bring.

What seems sad now is that guests to the area don't seem to feel safe here anymore either. If there's anything they should feel nervous of its likely not the natives!

It is really quite bizarre the number of people trying to lecture people on what it's like to live in a particular region when they never spent more than a few days there.

@ProfessorSillyStuff I'm not sure most Cornish agree with you though. I've had more grief from Cornish (and sometimes from quite random people, the woman who owns the bakery has something of a beef with me) for moving away than any issues with being Cornish elsewhere. It's seen like a betrayal. I find it really weird, and it puts me on the defensive when 'home'.

But that might just be my village, I expect it's also different depending on where you're from exactly.

I’ve never seen so many huge Cornish chips on shoulders as contained in this thread.

Everyone knows London prices for homes are high. Higher than Cornwall. No one has a right to live where they were born. There are cheap areas in Cornwall. The Cornish have to move like everyone else. Also where is this utopia where 100 % of low earners have homes? I don’t know where that is. Simon Reeve interviewed people who barely did any wirk. Of course they could not afford anything. The local doctor can. So can a couple of teachers snd all those folk at Cornwall Council. If there are no holiday home owners, wages would be less and far fewer employed. You cannot remove 1/3 of the economy snd think it will be great. I know my local restaurant owner finds it difficult to recruit trainee chefs. He’s got 2 Michelin stars! Cornish people don’t appear to want to train with him though. And they don’t need a degree! I think people like lira of spare time to go to the beach and have fun but then don’t earn much.

The tax paid by higher income tax payers is more than all the tax paid by the majority who pay standard rate. In areas where fewer pay high rates, services are paid for by those who pay more tax. So yes, Cornwall is subsidised.

From what I see of Cornwall, it attracts white older folks who don’t want ethnic minorities. They want to turn back the clock. That’s why Cornwall voted Brexit. To stop foreign incomers. I need to stop going there!

its amazing when we discuss poverty in the north nobody suggests northerners move south do they? Why not?

Northerners seem to do it of their own accord, plus they can make use of the large cities up North. They might have to move away from home but the South isn’t the only direct they can get job opportunities. I know of a few northern and Scottish places that seem to be missing the generation that’s building their careers right now because they’ve all moved away to find opportunity.

@LennyFitz
Perhaps you don't know the sketch, but my point is to illustrate how pointless it can be to respond to any discussion with "well, you think you have it bad.... Let me tell you". It serves nothing. It adds nothing to the discussion. There will always be someone somewhere who has it worse off than whatever scenario is being discussed. Sometimes it might help people gain perspective (and very much depending on the attitude accompanying the comment), but more likely it's going to be a pretty fruitless addition to the conversation.

Of course I know the sketch, given that it's the most frequently cited and best known comedy sketch in the world, and I haven't spent my life under a rock.

You posting it in reference to the experiences of refugees and asylum seekers is pointless, irrelevant and insulting.

Particularly on a thread in which more than one poster has had the chutzpah to say that refugees are 'privileged' in comparison to them, living on the same land their ancestors have occupied for half a millennium.

In the countryside you are in an environment many people would kill for, outdoor space, fresh air and a low crime rate. Cost of living is lower as well.

Yes, it can be lovely living in the countryside but the cost of living is absolutely not lower. There was a piece of research by Joseph Rowntree Foundation which compared urban and rural living costs and it was more expensive the more rural the area was. This was mainly due to transport costs (likely to be car dependent and public transport costs are high) and heating costs (likely to be off main gas) but housing will also be a factor in desirable locations.

I agree that people from expensive cities are often priced out too and think there should be affordable housing available to people with local ties in both rural and urban areas.

The Lake District has managed to introduce housing with occupancy restrictions due to tight planning laws because its a National Park. I've often thought that other areas (Cornwall, Cotswolds etc) would benefit from similar legislation. However, the vast majority of the housing stock doesn't have those restrictions and the numbers of holiday homes are still very high.

I've got no objection to people moving into the area from other locations and becoming part of the community (I've done that myself) but there does need to be a base level of permanent residents to keep communities viable and to do essential jobs. Rural areas need public services, tradesmen, professional services, retail and charity staff etc just like any area does. We're not all farmers and hospitality workers.

Just adding that, of course, farming is an essential job too. I'm just aware from previous MN threads and also from talking to visitors that lots of people assume there are no jobs here apart from tourism and land management. The reality is that rural areas still need council workers, teachers, health care workers, builders and most of the other jobs you find anywhere else.

If you live in a village in North Cornwall the sixth form commute to Exeter is a parent dropping you off at 6:30am to catch the bus. We did that for a friend for a fortnight, nearly broke me. The kid is amazing, so resilient, studying creative stuff. Others have understandably down graded their aspiration and changed courses.

If you want to commit to moving here, fine.
It's the part time second home owners, the buy to let's ( they buy off plan, collect the rent , live in Hertfordshire) and the New style, whole house Air BnBs that are the problem. And London, obviously already suffers from this but it's also the East, Wales, the Mendips, the lakes, Northumberland, etc what kind of country do we want to live in?
My in-laws got out of the stock market and have two btls, neither if which is anything like as well maintained as their own house. Both sets of tenents have asked to buy ( Mumbles & Chichester) and been refused. This is a ridiculous way to run a relatively small country. One family, one home should be the rule. If you want a holiday - a hotel or a campsite should be your UK choice, not a three bed room semi ideal for the school run.

you will not understand the political system because none of your teachers or parents did

See, this is the lack of aspiration people are talking about. You have internet access and you can read. You seem adequately literate to me. If you want to find something out, you can. Just start asking questions on Google and read the stuff that comes up. Think about it. Work out what you think about the stuff you read. Or just find someone who knows more than you do and take it from there until you feel confident enough to go off and ask your own questions.

If your parents didn't bother to find out either (and they could absolutely have used libraries and evening classes which are free or discounted for those on lower wages/not working) that is absolutely down to a lack of aspiration. I realise that libraries are now few and far between but there were a lot more of them until relatively recently and certainly in the pre-internet era. Even now, my 15 year old has been going to the library and requesting books - she's read a load of Sally Rooney and Sylvia Plath and Bernadine Evaristo and Andrey Kurkov and all sorts. She's made friends with the librarians who are now suggesting further reading. There isn't anything special about her, just natural curiosity. Even if you can only get to a library once a month, it's valuable. If you don't take the opportunity up, that's on you. It is there.

All your teachers had degrees. Do you really think none of them understood anything about the world? I don't believe it for a minute and I don't believe either that if a child or young adult had come to them seeking knowledge they'd not have bothered to help.

Most Cornish are mixed although white by appearance.

What? Mixed in what way? If they look white they'll be treated as white in any case. So they are absolutely not dealing with the consequences of being mixed heritage in the way that most people who aren't white are.

I don't want to see another generation of cornish youths waste their potential at all.

Of course you don't. Nobody wants to see any of our young people wasting their potential. But unless they go out and look for opportunities, what will happen to them? And yes, that might mean moving away from home. That is what everyone else has to do. Why not Cornish people?

No one in London (or other big cities) is going to make jokes at your expense for being from Cornwall, mock your accent or see you as a target for sexual assault.

I don't think you begin to grasp how many different places people come from here.

I'm a born and bred London Jew. My husband's Welsh. In my kids' classes at their small primary school, there are families from Albania, Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, czechia, Italy, Croatia, Ireland, Scotland, Nigeria, Somalia, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Sri Lanka, India, Israel, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, France, Brazil, st lucia, Philippines, China, Hong Kong and Japan. That's just two classes of 30 children. I might have missed some. Literally no one is going to notice that you're from Cornwall...

You say you know Black Cornish people. The census data shows that 0.2 % of 500,000 people in Cornwall identify as Black. That's about 1000 Black people in the whole county. You genuinely don't understand what it means to live somewhere where looking or sounding different, coming from somewhere different, is not just "tolerated" but completely normal.

Not angry about everything or semi literate. OP was the one angry and nasty about London and ignorant lies about it being better for the poor in London. Then other posters saying racist things including that refugees more privileged than Cornish. Think was disgusting thing to say.

OP is the one who seemed angry and also she's the one that brought London into this.

She could've done thread about how London's problems of 30 years starting to happen where she is but instead she lied that London doesn't have worst housing crisis in UK.

Typing on phone and how do you know if people have dyslexia or something else.

So also if you think semi literate shows OP wrong about all wonderful lovely education in London. Big place all different people and some maybe not so academic. No different to anywhere else including Cornwall.

Maybe don't be a snob about education and don't assume about people when writing here. Some of posters maybe dyslexic or not first language English.

there's lots of talk about aspiration on this thread which I think is a little disingenuous. Social mobility is going backwards & it's too simplistic to say something should study harder etc.

Think good fair post unlike OP and Xing and some other posters. Sorry for your friends child and hope they get good life, job and housing.

I don't think it's disingenuous to say that it absolutely is a lack of aspiration if someone is saying they don't understand the political system at the same time as quite obviously being literate and having access to the internet. It's completely self-inflicted if indeed they don't understand the political system. It's not to do with studying, which isn't for everyone. It's to do with being adequately informed about your own life.

It's to do with being adequately informed about your own life.

So if you are informed how does that improve ones social mobility?

Surely being informed leads to being better able to navigate the problems you may encounter in your life?

Well what's an example where someone being better informed that could help them navigate an issue with regards to social mobility?