Inequality in Devon and Cornwall

[GraceJonesBiggestFan]

So there have been a lot of threads about moving to the South West recently. Many including people who have moved down and criticised the local people for being insular or lacking aspiration. Many also including comments from people like me who are offended at the suggestion and have tried to explain why local people might feel incredibly upset at the awful inequality in Devon and Cornwall, and frustrated with the lack of empathy shown by people who’ve moved down with a ton of money.

So I thought I’d break it down on a new thread, so it’s not something personal against individual posters seeking advice.

The TLDR is this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-61241981

My family have lived within the same 2 villages for over 500 years. In that time they were all collectively employed by the local landowner (Clinton Devon Estates, in various iterations over the years). They all worked as farm labourers, domestic service, blacksmiths etc. They never owned property because a) they would never have earned enough and b) they had housing provided as part of their remuneration. It was hard work, but to be fair to Lord and Lady Clinton they gave jobs for life and when for example my Grandad retired, he was able to continue living in his family house for a peppercorn rent.

My grandparents were both very sharp, but both worked from the age of 12/14 to put food on the table. So no opportunities for betterment. My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer. My sisters and I were all recognised by our primary school teachers as being more than capable of going to the local grammar, but the bus there was £60 a term and the uniform £120. There was absolutely no way my parents could afford this. I spent much of my childhood growing up in a caravan in a field, but still achieved 11 As and A*s at GCSE (back then this was incredibly unusual).

The kids in my class who went to the grammar school and then went on to university were entirely the children of parents who had moved down from the South East. Their parents sold houses in London, bought what seemed like a mansion in Devon. They paid for their children to have additional tuition to pass the entrance exams, paid for them to do music, sports and language lessons. Supported them financially to go to university and do unpaid internships.

I don’t begrudge them this at all. If I had the means, I would do the same for my daughter.

But I hope it in some way explains why it’s not a “lack of aspiration” that holds people here back. The inequality in Devon and Cornwall is horrific and has gotten unbearably worse in the last 2 years. People recognise inner-city poverty and deprivation, but the poverty and inequality in Devon and Cornwall is statistically much worse. Consider that if you live in poverty in London, you at least have access to many universities and can continue to live at home rent free. If you grow up in Devon or Cornwall, your options for studying and living at home are much more limited. Most people born and bred here therefore earn minimum wage. Their parents weren’t home owners themselves (so no help with buying), but are now competing with people who have grown up in the South East with all the opportunities for social mobility there are there, with all the equity from their home ownership, with much higher wages etc.

I see it now again. The kids with the rich parents who moved down during the pandemic, now lining up a ton of extra-curricular activities so their child again gets the grammar school places. The local kids left behind to be laughed at as “lacking aspiration”. The parents in their cars that cost more than most people here will earn in 8 years. The wellies that cost more than my own car. The music, sports and language lessons that cost more than most parents receive in universal credit. Getting turfed out to live in B&Bs because your landlords selling up (for extortionate London prices) or turning your home into an air bnb. We’re not “unfriendly” or “insular”, we’re just utterly heartbroken.

I don't think you really get to spend your teenage years arsing around and then complain when you're working in the local meat processing plant that nobody told you how to be successful.

Is it either or though?

I mean I never arsed around & studied/worked hard but I still wouldn't have been able to buy London property without help and that's been far more beneficial than my working hard.

I've done the school run for the last 15years and worked as a census returns officer - it's far more mixed than the figures (1000, far too low) quoted above. I can name a few countries - my local opticians parents are from Singapore or South Africa. My kids went to school with 2nd gen Kenyan Asians(first gen raised here) , North Pakistan and Mauritius. The nurse when I came round was from the Philippines. The four global takeaways in our small town are staffed and very true to their ancestors. We're so broad minded, we can put aside our differences and even have friends from Devon.
But my up childhood friend, also from Mauritius, made the point that she chose to rAise children in a much more mixed area rather than being the trail blazer that she was in childhood in our white south east, working class, suburb. It's always harder for the first generation, and I include my Irish grandparents, who weren't exactly welcomed to London in the 1930s.

Our family ticked Cornish and European for the census. And Jedi for religion.

I agree that we have to teach ourselves if we can, but I think you underestimate how the odds can stack and how hard it is to get the full picture on politics and economics in any useful way. There is so much we have to learn and develop in ourselves first before we can get the wider picture. I am at 35 somehow naieve and yet considered well read by most who know me.

. Not to dripfeed, but I had an autistic, dyslexic and controlling dad, was raised essentially in a backward mysogynistic cult (jw), had undiagnosed asd until 29, and at my career advice appointment in 2002, I told everyone I needed a job drawing on a computer in an office, but nobody ever mentioned the term graphic designer or architect. So yes these degree educated teachers are really really daft, lots of them never left Cornwall or read.

My experiences are true, I have left, I trained and made it in cities and I was always targeted. Asd didn't help but the accent is a magnet for trouble.

I have gone to places where I was the minority specifically to experience it. Alone or with friends. My black friends have spoken to me at great length about modern racism because I asked.

I first learned about systemic racism and racism in Cornwall from my Cornish Black friend in 2007. I know it happens and I won't stand for it if I see it nor will 99% of Cornish.

No I won't experience racism in the way Black people have in history or everyday and I am grateful for that, I hope noone ever does, but when I look in the mirror I see my great great grand dad's nose ;) Jamaican shape

@pixie5121

I'm not sure what you have misunderstood? this thread is about local people not being able to buy in their home areas & some posters are saying they need to aspire to more to achieve that.

Buying London property isn't the be all and end all.

Who said it was? I'm a born & raised Londoner & my point was I'm far more "successful" because I was helped onto the housing ladder. That doesn't reflect how hard I did or did not work?

There's a massive middle ground between affording a Chelsea townhouse and working in a meat factory in the hometown you never left.

Why are you talking about townhouses in Chelsea?

you're the one making bizarre false equivalences.

how so? All I've said is I benefited hugely from being helped onto the London property ladder whilst young before prices shot up. If I had to do it alone with just my salary I'd be in expensive flat as opposed to a house worth much more than what I paid or could hope to ever buy now. My point is for many people hard work & a good salary will only get you so far. With today's housing crisis if your parents own or not & whether they can help you is far more important in terms of social mobility.

I see so much anger towards Londoners and outsiders....what's to stop Cornish people from working in London for a while and then moving back when they can afford to do so? Or is it only people in the rest of the UK (and world) who are expected to leave their home area and relocate for jobs and educational opportunities?

I don't see why they can't move to London & work but how many will become so successful they can make enough to move back & buy? or get remote jobs.
someone upthread mentioned MC law partners, that is an incredible narrow section of society.

Couple of things OP. Firstly locals have been very happy to sell their homes to the highest bidders therefore effectively pricing themselves out of the market there is absolutely nothing to stop local people selling their homes to local people within a local price range...you could argue that it's the vendors being greedy which has caused this housing issue. After all properties in the westcounty (and other tourist areas in the UK) haven't been stolen by Londoners.

Secondly I think the feudal living of which you speak is unusual, most of the 'Dowton Abbey' type story you tell is rare even in rural locations as the lord in his manor and tenant in his thatched cottage started falling by the wayside after the First World War, and had almost entirely gone by 1945; Finally in the 1960s the government brought in a tenancy act which meant this type of living was halted almost overnight. So your grandparents and even more so your parents were very, very unusual, in not being impacted by the huge social changes which took place between 1914-1960s.
the education act of 1944 made schooling compulsory until 15 (although this wasn't fully implemented until 1947). Similarly in 1947 is became a legal requirement for all 11 year olds to sit the 11+. You were then sent to grammar or secondary modern; you didn't get much of a choice you were either academically able or err not! Private Tutoring for the 11+ didn't really start until the mid to late 80s (when automatically sitting the 11+ was being phased out) by which time many grammar schools had been repurposed as bog standard secondary moderns, resulting in much greater competition for the few remaining grammars. The bottom line is if you are academically able then ultimately your life choices are much greater. If we want a fairer society then we need to level up on education. Children don't fail education, the educational system fails our children. If we want to reduce our prison population we need to completely overhaul our schooling structure, which still has many of its roots in the 1890s.

I've had a very nomadic life, as a result I've seen the insidiousness of poverty In many areas of the UK from the humblest rural parish, to the sparkly bling of bright city lights, homelessness is a bastard whereever you live. It could be tackled but the will is simply not there. The NHS could be sorted but the will isn't there. Education could be levelled but again the will isn't there.
Until we get politicians who genuinely care and aren't in it to feather their own nests, then we are no closer to solving many of the social issues which dog our society. The problem is the few politicians we do have with integrity are either jettisoned quickly or remain backbenchers by the arses who are in it for their own ends.
I do believe we could live in a more utopian state, but it would take some considerable effort and some decent politicians, but unfortunately those that would make the best politicians tend not to be interested in politics.

One example of where being better informed might lead to better social mobility outcomes is in career choice. If you have a broader understanding of which jobs might be available (which is hard if you only know people who work in limited industries and roles), can find information about how to get qualified and can then navigate the system of university choice and application then that goes a long way. I did it myself, pre internet, in the careers room of my Cornish 6th form. But the critical thing was that while my parents weren't much practical help, they were supportive and had high expectations.

If they had been continually telling me to stay local then I might have downgraded my ambitions. And not bothered to inform myself.

Family and community influence is one of the most critical factors in social mobility (Bourdieu is the reading here for anyone interested!).

@pixie5121 again you are misunderstanding, I've not said it's impossible to do better or it's wrong to try or aspire to more. My point is you cant ignore the role of family support when talking social mobility & for many aspiration will not be enough. Acknowledging that there are factors that limit social mobility doesn't mean don't aspire to anything.

Family and community influence is one of the most critical factors in social mobility (Bourdieu is the reading here for anyone interested!).

I agree

Very surprised at the responses trying to absolve local people from any responsibility of selling their homes to outsiders for second homes.

“they need to maximise return” “they didn’t know”.”family moved away” . Bottom line is If Cornish people, and their families, want to stop folks buying second homes they need to take responsibility for their community and stop selling their properties to folks for second homes.

the fault lies one hundred percent with the local sellers. They have done this to their community, people from outside cannot be held to a higher standard and hold more responsibility to protect the Cornish community than the Cornish people and their families.

it’s an uncomfortable truth but the Cornish people did this to themselves. Only the Cornish people can be responsible for stopping it. Attacking outsiders who bought and making it their fault holds them to a higher standard and gives them more responsibility to the locals than the Cornish themselves.

It’s lazy to blame the locals for selling up without making any attempt to understand the nuance of the problem, as myself and others have explained to you. It’s also often not ‘locals’ selling up and even when it is, they need to maximize the sale proceeds from their home just like anyone else, otherwise how are they going to have the funds for their next home? It’s a system problem with policy changes needed to limit holiday homes.

I think some people are missing the point. Many of the locals of Cornwall (replace with Cumbria, Northumberland, Blackpool or whatever) have no desire to move to London and become a high flying lawyer/accountant.

The point is why do we have a society where people can't afford a stable, secure place to live, a home in the place they live and work where they provide valuable services from cleaning to caring to nursing to plumbing to farming to waiting...

Are we really striving for every single person in Cornwall to become a high flying banker? Because as much as you hate it, we as a society need the "peasants" as one poster so disgustingly put it, and the jobs they do are often a hell of a lot more important thank banking.

And no wonder the locals of Cornwall are in some cases rude to incomers. From the superior attitudes on here, it's clearly they are viewed by many as nothing more than unaspirational peasants. You're no better than them just because you own a range rover and order a caramel latte.

@whataloadabullocks
Couple of things OP. Firstly locals have been very happy to sell their homes to the highest bidders therefore effectively pricing themselves out of the market there is absolutely nothing to stop local people selling their homes to local people within a local price range...you could argue that it's the vendors being greedy which has caused this housing issue

What a load of bullocks! :) locals have to live somewhere too, so if they sell they also then need to buy......
People die or move away, thats where most properties that come onto the market are from.

But in any case, why should anyone sell for below the market rate? if its an inheritance property, this might be the only way someone can buy a house, pay off debt or afford a half decent retirement, plus you need to ensure the house sold cheaply, could never be sold at market rate again.... how?

@CornishCollie ·I've done the school run for the last 15years and worked as a census returns officer - it's far more mixed than the figures (1000, far too low) quoted above.

The figures quoted above are literally taken directly from the census.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Cornwall

TBH some of the hatred i see toward 'blow ins (local for people who turn up, don't mix in or try to change things we like) is astounding.

So long term locals children have gone onto be doctors, a QC, nurses, therapists, engineers for the MOD, power grid technicians, s/w engineers... the ones that work in Ginsters or other so called dead end jobs are in the minority, which is why these industries have suffered since Brexit.

Though of course, during lockdowns, who wanted a QC ? we wanted supermarket staff and food delivery drivers.... easily forgotten now it seems.

No it’s not lazy and you cannot absolve them of responsibility to their own community, the absolutely and only way people can buy a second home in Cornwall is if a local person or their family sold it to them. There is no way round this. It is not the fault of the purchasers. It is solely one hundred percent the responsibility of the locals and their families to decide who they sell to.

and your argument is highly Illogical and contradictory. One side you argue they need to maximise returns so sell to outsiders on the other you want some form of legislation to prevent them doing this, thus limiting their returns. You excuse them for doing it, whilst demanding a policy that prevents the locals acting this way.

you cannot have it both ways.

@Kingharoldshairstyle Nope, you don't know what your talking about and are being very unrealistic.
People die, people move away, this is where most properties belonging to locals come from.

i'll ask again, what laws exist to stop the buyer selling for the market price, having bought for 50% of its actual value.

the absolutely and only way people can buy a second home in Cornwall is if a local person or their family sold it to them.

how much property is owned by locals though?

although I do see the argument. Similarly inheritance perpetuates inequality but plenty of people who dislike the inequality are happy to inherit as its their own ladder to owning etc

Moving away does not make you not Cornish? And when people die property is normally inherited by their family. Their Cornish family. It doesn’t make you not from a Cornish family, you can argue the illogical all day long but the one hundred percent fact remains for someone to have bought a house in Cornwall then a Cornish person sold it to them. It’s ludicrous to argue that someone is no longer Cornish if they live elsewhere.

and there is no laws, what are you on about and why are you asking such a ludicrous question?

@Kingharoldshairstyle so you live in Reading but your mum dies in Redruth but should sell to a local (who would qualify as that?) who can then sell for a killing? oh and the price you sell at isn't enough to pay for the 3 years of care you now have to pay back......

The only way your plan would work is if the state subsidised the difference and laws introduced to hold any future sale to xx% below market rate.

Maybe a better way would be to build council housing again? which is how most people managed to stay in the areas they were bought up in....... and which kept local services with a supply of labour.

I am not arguing that second homes shouldn’t be permitted and people shouldn’t sell to who they wish. I am not purporting any plan, personally I think folks should sell to whom they please. I’m not sure if you have me confused with another poster?

I am arguing that it is the responsibility of the Cornish people to protect their own community, if they have issues with people buying second homes. I don’t feel it’s the responsibility of the rest of the world to protect them from themselves and not buy from them, I do not feel outsiders have more responsibility to protect the Cornish community than the Cornish themselves, and I am arguing that the reason Cornish communities have so many second homes is because Cornish people chose that.