New neighbours building work

[meg54]

We have new neighbours who are doing major renovation work to their "forever" home.
Their property has an existing single storey kitchen extension ( which forms the boundary of their property and ours at the side of the house, extending to 4 metres into their/our garden, front to back. This is now the boundary wall between the two properties, with our garden fence running the length of the gardens.
They applied to the council for planning permission to build directly above the kitchen extension.

We objected.

The council denied our objection.

They cannot build the extension without accessing our property - from our driveway, through our garage, down the stairs, into the garden, removing two of our fence panels.

All the materials for the build will have to use our access, as they bricked up their back kitchen door - the only access they have to the back of the house (houses built on a slope, so one floor up at the back), is a builders ladder, accessible from their living room window.

The extension will also need to be built from our boundary, as
obviously they do not want building materials dragged through their recently very expensively renovated living room.

The scaffolding has to be erected from our side, and will also obstruct our access to the garden, and the cellars, which houses the big freezer and washing machine and DH's workshop.

The more I think about it, the more I think they are CF's.

Any advice wise folk?.

I wouldn't give them permission, and I wouldn't feel bad either. It's a massive, unreasonable ask of you. Your property could get damaged if builders dropped or spilled something. You are well within your rights to just say no. If nothing else, would you have to be at home the whole time the builders were working? It's a very unreasonable request from them.

Treesandweeds.

I have not told them no, because they have not asked.
There was a breezy conversation about 6 months ago when they said they "may" need access to put up scaffolding at the back, and need access through our garage, and two of our fence panels removed to accommodate this.
In the event, they arranged the scaffolding access through their adjoining neighbours.
Unfortunately they did not tell us, (or the scaffolders). Which resulted in a massive hissy fit (scaffolders), the road being blocked for three and a half hours, and the police being called.
DH blamed it on me for giving them "The Death sStare".
I have been quite clear from the outset with them that an extension would turn our garden steps into a "chasm", and block the light into our upstairs hall, bathroom and toilet. And I am fully aware that we have no entitlement to light in those rooms.
They are fully aware that we have objected to the extensions, and our reasons for it.

“The only access they have now to the back garden is a set of builders ladders out of the recently fitted sliding doors, about 2 metres above garden level.”

That’s completely bonkers.

@meg54

Yes Basilisk. But people in terraces can't build side extensions.

Google side return extension.

Have they already done the work to strengthen the roof, if that extension is 20 years old? In my experience a 20 year old extension would be unlikely to be floor joists. Roof joists will not be sufficient for floor loading

We were the ones doing the extension and neighbours wouldn't let us have any access whatsoever.

And that was that, we could only work around what we could do on our own side.

Viques.

Google first floor side extensions.

So - terraced house - side extension to extend the back rear ground floor one of the most popular things.

Depending on age of house further to @NothingIsWrong - have they made sure the foundations will support another floor. They may very well have done but some victorian / older houses ( not sure of age of your neighbours' house ) will not support another full story. They weren't built to do it & the foundations need to be inspected.

But either neighbours have checked and it is fine or they will have to get building control in. I'd still be tempted with the bat and orchid thing.

Would there be a compromise where they can take most things through their house and just use ladders / scaffolding in your bit to make good and friendly looking on your side ( on a tight agreed schedule. )

Nothingiswrong,
They haven't done anything yet, there are no floor joists, and no roof joists.
As other posters have pointed out, the existing foundations may not have been required, or designed to support, what will be, in effect, 3 stories.
And there is no way to find out other than to build it, and wait for it to collapse.
And then we will know.

But you've been posting as though you have to give them access. And you feel you should die to them having a new kitchen etc. You don't. And you aren't going to?

Well you are absolutely right to say no, and your neighbours sound bonkers.
I have spent all day replying to emails and calls about a neighbour's extension, which they seem to have fucked up before they started.
I am well pissed off, that I am spending time on something from which I get no benefit, but I am worried about them causing long term damage to my property.
Some people are such idiots.

@meg54 - this is where I run out of expertise but I do believe that the right way to do it is - the builders & building control can dig down and inspect the foundations to see if they will take the weight So not just a matter of building it and seeing if it falls down - but there be others better qualified to say.

@BasiliskStare yes, we would do trial pits (am an SE) to determine the capacity of the foundations. Again, like the joists, unlikely to be woman enough for the job.

@meg54 I was wondering about the existing flat roof to the (newly renovated) kitchen. The timbers forming the roof to that are unlikely to be of a size that will carry floor loading as this is at least twice as much as standard roof loading. If they don't wish to remove the roof to upgrade them, they will need to have another layer of timbers forming the new floor which usually means a step up inside the house.

Oh and the lintels. The lintels forming the openings to existing doors and windows may need replacement to carry an additional storey. While there is a way of doing the outer face of the wall relatively non intrusively (heli stitching), the majority of the load on a standard masonry house is carried on the inner leaf. It's not hard to do technically, but it needs the window removed and is messy messy. In a newly renovated room.

Indeed, this is arse about face.

Basilisk.

There is nothing they have done to ensure the further extension will support the extra weight. The house is the same age as ours.
Building control will only get involved when construction is underway - and no-one in their right mind is going to dig out ground floor foundations on a completed renovation to make sure it will support a second storey.

The whole point of the post is there is no compromise on their side - and nothing but risk on our side.

As posters have pointed out, all bricks, cement, sand, concrete mixers, building materials, hairy arsed builders, scaffolding, tea breaks, takeaways, blasting techno music, tab ends, plant trampling, pissing on the flowerbeds, rubble, rubbish, blocking of drains, and general disruption will happen on our side.
Access through our garage, which apart from the usual garagey paraphernalia contains a large amount of DH's very expensive hobby equipment.
And as previously stated, loss of enjoyment of our garden, and that I have the washing machine and large freezer , potting shed, and DH's workshop in the cellar, all in regular use.
And all the plants I need to replace that I lost last year.
And the birds need to be fed - the feeders cleaned and topped up, and birdbaths cleaned out, and the ponds cleaned so the wee fishes. and the stuff I prefer not to think about can thrive.
I cannot see where the compromise would sit.
Night all.

[quote BasiliskStare]@meg54 - this is where I run out of expertise but I do believe that the right way to do it is - the builders & building control can dig down and inspect the foundations to see if they will take the weight So not just a matter of building it and seeing if it falls down - but there be others better qualified to say.[/quote]
Yes this is what they did with us when we wanted to build on top of an existing single structure. They don't just build things and hope they don't fall down

@meg54

Basilisk.

There is nothing they have done to ensure the further extension will support the extra weight. The house is the same age as ours.
Building control will only get involved when construction is underway - and no-one in their right mind is going to dig out ground floor foundations on a completed renovation to make sure it will support a second storey.

The whole point of the post is there is no compromise on their side - and nothing but risk on our side.

As posters have pointed out, all bricks, cement, sand, concrete mixers, building materials, hairy arsed builders, scaffolding, tea breaks, takeaways, blasting techno music, tab ends, plant trampling, pissing on the flowerbeds, rubble, rubbish, blocking of drains, and general disruption will happen on our side.
Access through our garage, which apart from the usual garagey paraphernalia contains a large amount of DH's very expensive hobby equipment.
And as previously stated, loss of enjoyment of our garden, and that I have the washing machine and large freezer , potting shed, and DH's workshop in the cellar, all in regular use.
And all the plants I need to replace that I lost last year.
And the birds need to be fed - the feeders cleaned and topped up, and birdbaths cleaned out, and the ponds cleaned so the wee fishes. and the stuff I prefer not to think about can thrive.
I cannot see where the compromise would sit.
Night all.

Yes exactly, so why are you even considering it? It's obviously a flat no, surely?

@meg54 if you are going down the building notice route with Building Control, they can still order you to stop and get proper investigations done if they aren't happy. I don't know a single BC officer that would let that pass without a trial pit.

You don't dig up the whole foundation, a 1m square pit up against the face of the building, with the depth down to the base of the existing foundations would suffice. Possibly two of these for a larger development. Honestly, these are very common. I'm client side now, but my husband runs a structural engineering consultancy and trial putting is extremely normal. Often the homeowner will dig it themselves to save costs and just get him to inspect once it's done.

If they start, you can notify BC yourself if you don't think they will do it. But an extension of that size, they would generally have an architect or an architectural technician involved who would be advising them on the legalities. They would need structural calculations for the floor and roof.

trial *pitting

Still don’t understand why op is agreeing to this - can anyone explain?

OP, why do you keep saying they cannot build unless through your garden. It's completely ridiculous notion that they might, whether naive or CF. I don't know why you've even got to the point of being concerned about your DH's expensive hobby equipment.

There are a couple of simple facts you'd do well to remember:

1. Planning permission being granted doesn't give them the right to access your property to go through with the build
2. Just because via your garage is the most obvious way doesn't mean it's the only way

It's their desire to have the extension, their issue and for them to work with a builder on a solution. Of course there are options open to them but they will just cost more or be more tricky than coming via your garage. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

The more you post the more I'm wondering if you like the drama? Why can't you just say no? Why are you even thinking so much about what will happen to your property? It won't if you don't let it.

Just say no.

@ShuddaBeenMe

Just say no.

Well yes. There's no need for all of this angst. Just say no. What are they going to do? Break into your house? Wait until they ask, say no, leave the problem with Jen. Because it's their problem. Not yours. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Them, not Jen. It's not her problem either. 😆

Why do you insist on writing as though you have no choice but to allow this to happen. Just tell them no - their lack of access is not your problem.