New neighbours building work

[meg54]

We have new neighbours who are doing major renovation work to their "forever" home.
Their property has an existing single storey kitchen extension ( which forms the boundary of their property and ours at the side of the house, extending to 4 metres into their/our garden, front to back. This is now the boundary wall between the two properties, with our garden fence running the length of the gardens.
They applied to the council for planning permission to build directly above the kitchen extension.

We objected.

The council denied our objection.

They cannot build the extension without accessing our property - from our driveway, through our garage, down the stairs, into the garden, removing two of our fence panels.

All the materials for the build will have to use our access, as they bricked up their back kitchen door - the only access they have to the back of the house (houses built on a slope, so one floor up at the back), is a builders ladder, accessible from their living room window.

The extension will also need to be built from our boundary, as
obviously they do not want building materials dragged through their recently very expensively renovated living room.

The scaffolding has to be erected from our side, and will also obstruct our access to the garden, and the cellars, which houses the big freezer and washing machine and DH's workshop.

The more I think about it, the more I think they are CF's.

Any advice wise folk?.

They do have a way into the garden -via a ladder. So that’s what they will have to use. Or they can crane stuff over the house.

To me it sounds like you want to give them access as you keep defending their stance that it is the only way the extension can be built.

Not that they are entitled to build one anyway, Do you just want them to be more grateful? It doesn't sound like that is going to happen!

It's like they have you brainwashed that this is the only way this can happen.

You really don't have to let them. This happened to friends of ours. They had let neighbours put scaffolding in their garden but when they asked for the same courtesy in return the neighbours said no!

The extension was built from the inside somehow.

@undecided2022

I'm confused. Why can't you just say no to access on your property?

This is what i dont get.

Just say no and do not permit access.

Aaah, from one of the OP’s follow up posts, is the ACTUAL issue that she has previously said “yes” but now wants to retract and say “no”?

If so, just say no.

How outrageous!! I’m sure you don’t HAVE to allow that amount of access through your home.

I had something somewhat similar. Bungalow next door sold. Very old. Had a garage of which one wall was the boundary (my side the boundary to maintain, ie fence). New owner (a stealth developer) put in planning to build a much bigger two storey house (also with rooms in the loft). Other side of this property is a bungalow that had bedrooms in the loft an ad velum windows.

My house is not a bungalow, on the side where they were building are my downstairs loo, glass kitchen door (used to be the kitchen window) and outside the hall landing and main bathroom.

The other bungalow won on their objection for loss of light as their rooms were considered habitable rooms. The drawings had to change drastically to accommodate their right to light.

I lost on my objection as my rooms are not considered habitable. (How bizarre). However, the council said their building two stories one meter from my house made my house look like a terraced house so while they could build the two storey house, the old garage could only be ground floor. If I knew which person in the council brought that up I’d have kissed them.

What PP have said is definately the case. You can apply for planning permission on any land in the country and the local authority have to consider it, even if you do not own the land. If you didn't own the land, you could still be granted planning permission however, that doesn't mean that you can just go ahead and built. You would either need to buy the land or receive the land owners permission. Your neighbour has permission to build but not permission to access your land and you can say no as easily as you could choose to say yes. If you do say yes, be like Clive and make sure that you are covered.

There was some talk back in early spring about maybe needing access through our garage, (the build work started 1st week in Jan), to get the scaffolding for the work at the back - this would involve removing two of our fence panels.
At this point they had not submitted an application for planning for any of the work, so it was not an issue, we were reasonably confident the Council would refuse as it would be massively overbearing for us.
We were wrong. Found out about 3 weeks ago permission had been granted.

Their existing extension was built about 20 years ago, to make the kitchen bigger (it really was tiny), it is now just small. The brick wall now forms the boundary by about 4 metres at the house end of our garden.

This is NOT a party wall. A party wall divides 2 properties. On our side it against our external stairs to the cellar and garden.

Our situation is different to Clive the Wise, as they are not building a new structure, they are building ABOVE an existing one

Mumsie,
It does break my heart to see the state of the garden, but I sympathise with the current owners on this. They were expecting to move in at the end of March, they actually moved in about 4 weeks ago. One of their parents was last week tidying the front garden, now that the skips are gone, and told DH that she was itching to get to work on the back, so I am sure it will get done.

I really do not understand why they have done things the way they have.

Franglais,
You have described the situation perfectly. I will try to draw a picture of the back of the houses, which may explain better the layout. It is difficult because at the back of our house, the "ground" level is about one and a half metres above their ground level.

Why would you even consider allowing access through your garage - just tell them no.

Op it may not be a party wall but the party wall act still covers you as it's up to your boundary (albeit external on your side).

You dont to have to do anything for them. They can go through their kitchen.

You seem to be making things harder for yourself. This isn't your problem.

Charge rent. A lot of rent.

If they have doors and a ladder at the moment, could they put in a temporary platform and stairs to do the work through their own house?

I wouldn't be allowing them access through my property just cos they didn't want to mess up their own!

Like others have said, this is their problem to solve. They don't sound like they have a lot of common sense so I'd avoid getting involved.

Don’t allow them access to or on your property. You are not legally obliged to do so (I don’t think).
I wouldn’t.

How they build their extension is not your problem. It's theirs. You don't have to give them access, nothing has been agreed and whether they have to crane it over or traipse it all through their new kitchen that really is their problem to figure out.

You sound like you've accepted they'll be all over your garden regardless of the number of posters advising you that you don't actually have to allow it.

How is your situation different to Clive's?

They need access. They pay you. You have a contract written up at their cost detailing how much they pay you for what and with penalty clauses for overrun. It also details the standard to which they will return your garage and garden - and when. They sign the contract. They pay your legal fees. It's totally normal to do it this way, they are forever doing it on Grand Designs [grins] Why on earth would you give them access with no comeback??

A wall is a "party wall" if it stands astride the boundary of land belonging to two (or more) different owners.

You really need to get some proper advice and get an agreement made, they have to foot the cost. (My H is a building surveyor).

www.gov.uk/party-walls-building-works

Definition of a Uk party wall here

You have described the situation perfectly. I will try to draw a picture of the back of the houses, which may explain better the layout.

Honestly I don't think you need to: their extentsion means they ahve no external access to their back garden- easy.

What is confusing people is what you are worried about. They can't access their back garden (in a pactical way) so therefore there will be no extentsions.

All this stuff about them having scaffolding on your land is irrelevant because you will just say no.

Just say no!

I helped my MiL to reduce the scale of the extension to her neighbour's property because of the impact it would have on both my MiL's and the other neighbour's privacy and gardens and light. They had to scale their proposals back and were refused consent for raised decking that would enable them to look into everyone's gardens (gardens at a lower level than the front of the house). My MiL was not happy to receive a letter indicating that they needed to use her house to bring in building matterials and scaffolding in order to carry out the work - and refused to allow it.

Planning permission doesn't look at whether building work can be carried out - planners aren't trained in that sort of thing - they're only looking at whether the completed building would be acceptable. So they won't have considered HOW the work will be done in anyway - that's up to the builders. If the neighbours are unable to get the level of access they want from you, that's their problem not yours. You should not accept that they need to bring ANY building materials through your property - they can keep all their building materials on their site. You might be 'nice' and let them put scaffolding up - but I would put a price on this and have money provided on a weekly basis and indicate that scaffolding will be removed if payment is not made promptly. But even access to the scaffolding should be from the neighbour's side not using your driveway etc.

Planning permission is not building permission. It doesn't give them permission or rights to access via your property.

Just because they can get planning permission, doesn't mean they can go ahead with the work.

@meg54 - so what have they actually said/asked you for so far?

If their extension was built 20 years ago would it even carry the weight of an extra storey? The foundations and lintels may need upgrading. Standard ceiling joists are generally not sufficient for bedroom loading and might need to be replaced. If they are limited on height this would mean they need to remove the flat roof and redo it.

When we had our flat roof kitchen extension done, we did oversize foundations and lintels to carry an extra storey and the roof joists are actually sized as floor joists so if we ever did want to go up again it's all ready to go. This is after years of experience of being a structural engineer and having to tell homeowners that what they want isn't possible without a new roof and underpinning...

OP - as above - you need to read up on what constitutes a "party wall" under the act. It doesn't have to be a shared wall (i.e. a wall of their house which is also a wall in your house) to come under the act.

Irrespective of whether the Party Wall Act applies, there is NO WAY I would be allowing this sort of access without a legal agreement in place.