New neighbours building work

[meg54]

We have new neighbours who are doing major renovation work to their "forever" home.
Their property has an existing single storey kitchen extension ( which forms the boundary of their property and ours at the side of the house, extending to 4 metres into their/our garden, front to back. This is now the boundary wall between the two properties, with our garden fence running the length of the gardens.
They applied to the council for planning permission to build directly above the kitchen extension.

We objected.

The council denied our objection.

They cannot build the extension without accessing our property - from our driveway, through our garage, down the stairs, into the garden, removing two of our fence panels.

All the materials for the build will have to use our access, as they bricked up their back kitchen door - the only access they have to the back of the house (houses built on a slope, so one floor up at the back), is a builders ladder, accessible from their living room window.

The extension will also need to be built from our boundary, as
obviously they do not want building materials dragged through their recently very expensively renovated living room.

The scaffolding has to be erected from our side, and will also obstruct our access to the garden, and the cellars, which houses the big freezer and washing machine and DH's workshop.

The more I think about it, the more I think they are CF's.

Any advice wise folk?.

We have a party wall with neighbour - it is the garden wall. I have had this before.

Regardless of what OP decides to do, I believe my cousin is correct. In any dealings over property and/or finance where neighbours come to you with a request treat it as a business proposition. They want something from you. The build is not for your benefit so you have a right to cover your expenses and any inconvenience and get something out of the deal.

My cousin said to his NDN "Lets leave this neighbour stuff on one side. Im a business man and you've come to me with a business proposition to rent part of my land".

Negotiate a treaty with all the terms spelled out and the NDN pays for the legal work. If he decides it not worth his hassle to pay a commercial rate than thats his problem and not yours.

The posters who say you dont need the expense of a lawyer unless you plan to allow access are correct. It would be a needless expense unless you need legal documents drawing up.

The NDN should have come to you first and sounded you out on access before they even put plans to paper. They may well have to abandon the entire project now. Their problem not yours.

Apart from the fact that the OP seems to be saying yes 🥺 and then moaning about it

@meg54

There was some talk back in early spring about maybe needing access through our garage, (the build work started 1st week in Jan), to get the scaffolding for the work at the back - this would involve removing two of our fence panels. At this point they had not submitted an application for planning for any of the work, so it was not an issue, we were reasonably confident the Council would refuse as it would be massively overbearing for us. We were wrong. Found out about 3 weeks ago permission had been granted.

Their existing extension was built about 20 years ago, to make the kitchen bigger (it really was tiny), it is now just small. The brick wall now forms the boundary by about 4 metres at the house end of our garden.

This is NOT a party wall. A party wall divides 2 properties. On our side it against our external stairs to the cellar and garden.

Our situation is different to Clive the Wise, as they are not building a new structure, they are building ABOVE an existing one

Mumsie,
It does break my heart to see the state of the garden, but I sympathise with the current owners on this. They were expecting to move in at the end of March, they actually moved in about 4 weeks ago. One of their parents was last week tidying the front garden, now that the skips are gone, and told DH that she was itching to get to work on the back, so I am sure it will get done.

I really do not understand why they have done things the way they have.

Franglais,
You have described the situation perfectly. I will try to draw a picture of the back of the houses, which may explain better the layout. It is difficult because at the back of our house, the "ground" level is about one and a half metres above their ground level.

I am afraid you are wrong about it not being a party wall. (I am a solicitor by the way).

A PW is one that straddles or is built up against the boundary.

Therefore the PWA will apply. ]

Have a look at this which should tell you all you need to know. www.cwj.co.uk/site/library/legalnews/dont_let_your_extension_go_to_the_party_wall.html

@donquixotedelamancha

You have described the situation perfectly. I will try to draw a picture of the back of the houses, which may explain better the layout.

Honestly I don't think you need to: their extentsion means they ahve no external access to their back garden- easy.

What is confusing people is what you are worried about. They can't access their back garden (in a pactical way) so therefore there will be no extentsions.

All this stuff about them having scaffolding on your land is irrelevant because you will just say no.

It doesn't work like that. The Party Wall Act provides a mechanism whereby the neighbour may carry out the work and it would be unlawful for OP to stop them. Far better for OP to engage with the process and get protection that way instead of convincing themselves wrongly it's not a party wall.

I really do not understand why they have done things the way they have

Again, though, even if they've made a complete hash of their plans, that doesn't mean it's your problem until you invite them to make it so

It's not for anyone else to tell you what to do, but I absolutely guarantee that if you let them access your property for the build, you'll be straight back on here with "I allowed my neighbour to do such-and-such, and now x,y,z has happened - what can I do?"

It doesn't work like that. The Party Wall Act provides a mechanism whereby the neighbour may carry out the work and it would be unlawful for OP to stop them.

I understand it's a party wall. I've never mentioned OP stopping them carrying out work, merely not agreeing to the use of her land.

Are you saying the party wall act will force OP to allow use of her land for a non-essential first floor extension?

OP YOU AREN'T LISTENING

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LET THEM ONTO YOUR LAND TO BUILD THIS

Planning permission only means that the council are happy with the plans for the extension. It doesn't mean that other people have to accommodate them. So what if the only way they can practically do it is via your land? If they don't get permission from the landowner then they can't do it - that's their problem not yours. What if the only way they could do it was if the builder agreed to do the work for £2.50 and a packet of nice biscuits? Do you think that would happen?

You can apply for planning permission to build on land you don't even own yet. It still doesn't give you the right to build there until you've actually bought the land. I think you are massively misunderstanding what planning permission actually is.

Our local Coop got permission to build close to their boundary for an extension. The neighbouring commercial property didn't allow them to put their scaffolding up on their land, even though it would not have prevented their business or parking - and there was a gap between the buildings anyway. The Coop had to go back and change their permission to an extension where they only needed to use their own land. This is exactly the same situation that you are in with your neighbours.

Agree with @stormyweather274: every tradesman, cleaner even who comes to my house to do work paid for by me damages something

No way ever would I let someone else’s trades through

They will have to rip out their kitchen, do the work and reinstall: or more likely abandon plans, which is a common enough occurrence

Agree with the rest they might have got PP but no ones given them permission to use your property.

@meg54 please read the posts above. You are ignoring valuable information. 1) Even though your houses are not adjoining, the proposed extension will go right up to the boundary, so it BECOMES a party wall. 2) You have no legal obligation to provide access to anyone via your property. The insurance ramifications for this are actually mind-boggling. I doubt very much that your insurance OR theirs would want to cover damage done during this ill-conceived project. 3) If they threaten to take you to court, let them. The liklihood of this extension permission being flipped is probably quite good now that planners are back at work. (Paying attention.) 4) If this happens you would need to take the plans to a surveyor and point out where THEY had blocked off their own access and all the issues with plumbing, drainage, light, etc.

Also - start talking about financial compensation for stress, intrusion, damage, landscaping repairs, depreciation due to erosion from their down pipes, etc…. I bet your “naive (entitled)” neighbours couldn’t give a shit about what happens on your side of the fence.

Nothing new to add, just want to see what happens adding to the chorus of 'See a solicitor'.

I have been in this position. I told the other party that the Party wall act applied, he disagreed. I contacted a Party Wall Surveyor as the works hadn't started and he agree that the development fell within the act. He wrote to the developer and advised him the the act applied. The developer issued a party wall notice. I said I wanted to have a second party wall surveyor to the developer's one. This is at the developing party's expense. The party wall agreement was drawn up. A survey was done of my property and photographs. The agreement contracted various stipulations including payment for scaffolding, penalty clause for over run and various other matters regarding making good etc. I received about £4000. I also called on the surveyor at various points when the build was not going as it should be e'g; encroachment, depth of foundations etc and at one point it was halted under the act. No solicitor required. The essential is that the neighbouring party has to issue the notice before commencing the build.

Do not let them on your property and listen to others good advice!

If they cause damage to your property when bringing materials through, who’s insurance is claimed on?

I the case of a Party Wall Agreement drawn up by the party wall surveyor/s matters of damage etc are included. One or more party wall surveyors whoever appoints them are independent of both/all parties and under obligation to act impartially in making awards.

I'm not sure why you are so riled up about it. It sounds like you are in a great position as you seem certain they can't build what they want to build without access to your property which you have full say over and you can just decline access. Problem solved. No build.

First, meg54, no way in the world would I allow access across/through my property. Wouldn't matter how much they offered it wouldn't be worth the mess, inconvenience and hassle.

Although I do smile at people quoting the PWA. Of course it's relevant but what happens if they don't go through with completing it? We have a HMO being 'developed' near us. No PWA with either of the immediate home owners. Hasn't stopped the fucker doing his works.

I wouldn’t let anyone put scaffolding on my property. I’ve seen enough builders go to other jobs and leave scaffolding up for months.
And seeing as you don’t want this extension it seems a win win for me.

Not having access to the back of their property is likely to be an ongoing issue. What happens if they need trees works in futures, a cement mixer for a new patio, equipment to clean out drains, roof repairs.... All highly likely in the next 5-10 years.

If you say yes this time, you will be creating an expectation going forward. They need to sort it out.

@donquixotedelamancha

It doesn't work like that. The Party Wall Act provides a mechanism whereby the neighbour may carry out the work and it would be unlawful for OP to stop them.

I understand it's a party wall. I've never mentioned OP stopping them carrying out work, merely not agreeing to the use of her land.

Are you saying the party wall act will force OP to allow use of her land for a non-essential first floor extension?

Yes. That is precisely what I'm saying. Read the Act, or read the link I posted.

The only thing it cannot do is allow the neighbour to build on a wall that straddles the boundary. If the wall abuts the boundary on the neighbour's side then they can build on top of it.

Our neighbours who are not part of our clos, applied for and got permission to install a drive and gateway from our road that they had no right of way over! Planners granted it. When we all then received a letter from their lawyers asking us for access we said no. CF’s. Just say no.