Fife/Angus Scotland Vs Home Counties England - to move or not to move

[InsertSassyUsernameHere]

Advice needed please.

I'm English, from the south of England.
My partner is from the northern isles of Scotland, and we live an hour north of Edinburgh.

I do not like it. I miss being down south, I miss being close enough to London to just hop on the train and see the sights etc.
I really miss the weather. It's so much colder, wetter and windier up here than I imagined.

We have been here for several years, and our children (10, seven) have been here most of their lives, so are settled in various activities (cubs, brownies, swimming etc). They are home educated, so no ties to school. My children both feel the weather too, and would be happy to move south.

My husband has finally said he'd look for a job down south. It has taken me YEARS of pushing to get him to even consider it, despite telling him I'm utterly miserable up here. But now, I worry about starting over with the kids re getting them into all the activities they like (waiting lists for various classes).
I also have big concerns about the state of the country, with the Tories destroying so much and at least we have some level of protection in Scotland with the SNP.
I worry about losing the free university options up here if we move.
But I also think the job opportunities are much better for my children down south, and they might not want to go to university up here, or even at all.

And if we bite the bullet and get a house down south, it will be worth more to them when they need a leg up when they buy their own properties. As it is, houses don't increase much up here, and I worry about not leaving them enough to help them.

If we move, we could only afford a small house with a small garden. Up here we could afford a nicer house, with a big garden (we moved in a rush, so are looking at moving anyway, to a better home. Whether that is in the same area and I accept my lot, or, we make the move, is the big dilemma.)

I feel torn.

What should be my key considerations?

I am NOT happy here, but, my children come first and I want what's best for their futures, but also their childhoods.

The weather in Scotland isn't great, wet in the west and freezing in the east.
You need to make a decision for you in the now not your dc in the future.
The one thing Scots have always been good at is emigration so your dc could end up anywhere as adults.
If you want to live in the SE then move there, sooner rather than later would be easier on your dc.

To be honest, you sound bored dickless. And also really resentful of your husband. And actually quite materialistic (I don't mean that as an insult, more that you are very concerned about how much money you can give your children, and their future job prospects). I think you'd feel more settled if you got a job, to be honest. But I also think you're at the end of your patience, resentment with DH has built up and up and the only way to solve that is to move.

I suspect the fact you're using club waiting lists as a reason not to move means you sense some of your issues won't be solved by moving, either.

Elsa, he doesn't want the hassle or costs of moving. Or the stress/gamble. He also, it seems to me, has very low expectations of what a family home should be like (e.g. we don't have a garden, which I think is just awful for kids to grow up with no garden, when we could move further out, and have more space. But he doesn't want to commute.). I think the crux of the issue is that he comes from a deadend town, high drug problems and unemployment, whereas I come from a lovely town in the South, everyone went to university, etc. For him, this is a step in the right direction, social mobility-wise. He's moved up, but I've moved a long way down.

Snog, no, can't do several weeks in Spain. I'd rather take a long holiday than have the expense of a holiday home anyway. Not that we could afford it.

Lakeside, I feel this is as much for them as me. Trying to give them a head start in life, as well as summers where they aren't wrapped in coats, is important. I don't know how the natives put up with it.

Lonny, I'm not bored.
I am a bit resentful though, yes. I brought a decent amount of savings into the marriage to enable me to be a sahm, and lessen financial pressure, and my husband has not helped the situation - several unlucky career/company moves and waste of time courses that were too big of a gamble when you have a family have undone the sacrifices I made before I had kids, which I made in preparedness for my future children's futures. Now I feel they are disadvantaged. We can't afford a nice house down south; if we move, they will be living in small cramped rooms, with a tiny garden, and not in a great area. But at least the weather's better. Right now we live in a small house: he wanted to be close to town and I thought it was only short term, but the years dragged on. Meanwhile, we've put money into doing up this house, but we just had it valued and have lost thousands, it's not gone up by anywhere near what we put into it. I'm utterly gutted.
I don't think he appreciates how vulnerable I am now too. But being a sahm was really important to me, so I took that risk. It's still really important to me to be a sahm. I am looking into nighttime work now to help boost our finances. I am very very stressed about everything.

I don't think it's materialistic to understand our country is pretty screwed, and life is harder for most kids/youths than it was before. House prices have skyrocketed whilst wages have stagnated, and the extremely wealthy are allowed to buy 2+ properties whilst the poor remain renters. Young adults are paying rent that far exceeds mortgages, and are stuck in that cycle. I just want to enable mine to not get stuck in that rent trap til they are 40.

Re club waiting lists, I just mean my kids really love certain classes, and up here, there were three activities my eldest had to wait two years just to get on. We are in now. If we move, I worry they might not get back into their specific sports/activities/lessons.

@InsertSassyUsernameHere

Advice needed please.

I'm English, from the south of England.
My partner is from the northern isles of Scotland, and we live an hour north of Edinburgh.

I do not like it. I miss being down south, I miss being close enough to London to just hop on the train and see the sights etc.
I really miss the weather. It's so much colder, wetter and windier up here than I imagined.

We have been here for several years, and our children (10, seven) have been here most of their lives, so are settled in various activities (cubs, brownies, swimming etc). They are home educated, so no ties to school. My children both feel the weather too, and would be happy to move south.

My husband has finally said he'd look for a job down south. It has taken me YEARS of pushing to get him to even consider it, despite telling him I'm utterly miserable up here. But now, I worry about starting over with the kids re getting them into all the activities they like (waiting lists for various classes).
I also have big concerns about the state of the country, with the Tories destroying so much and at least we have some level of protection in Scotland with the SNP.
I worry about losing the free university options up here if we move.
But I also think the job opportunities are much better for my children down south, and they might not want to go to university up here, or even at all.

And if we bite the bullet and get a house down south, it will be worth more to them when they need a leg up when they buy their own properties. As it is, houses don't increase much up here, and I worry about not leaving them enough to help them.

If we move, we could only afford a small house with a small garden. Up here we could afford a nicer house, with a big garden (we moved in a rush, so are looking at moving anyway, to a better home. Whether that is in the same area and I accept my lot, or, we make the move, is the big dilemma.)

I feel torn.

What should be my key considerations?

I am NOT happy here, but, my children come first and I want what's best for their futures, but also their childhoods.

Why are you miserable? I think I would drill down to that before uprooting the entire family. Your kids are old enough now that they may hanker after Scotland in the same way you are hankering after London - in that situation I think I would go with what my kids wanted.

Grumpy, I think the weather is a huge factor. People told me is get used to it. I have not.

I also think job prospects are better closer to London. And I miss the buzz of going into London more regularly.

If my kids want to return here, I'd move back to be closer to them when they are older. Then it's their choice as adults. If they want/need me.
Currently, they both want to move south. A d I want them to experience the long warm summers I had. As it is, they've had one decent summer since being here, the rest have been a week or two if sunshine, but high winds, and lots of drizzle. I'm not built for this weather.

The weather... yes, Scotland is colder and wetter... but - tbh, the whole having no summer thing is recent, as a child we used to get weeks of really nice weather at Easter and then again in June/July time.

The past 10 years or so have been.... different.

I’d also point out that the social issues and house price thing could well exist down south too, I’m I reckon about 30 - 40 minutes drive from you and my house has increased by about 30k in the last 5 years... and there are some really nice places around Scotland.

Uni btw, is nothing to do with where people are born, it’s free if they’re ordinary residents in Scotland for 4 years.

None of those are reasons to stay or go btw, just... reading your posts, I’m not convinced that a move will actually make you happier, it kind of sounds like you and your DH have very different ideas about life - and that will go with you wherever you live.

Thanks for your reply, @tabulahrasa.

Can you please expand on this:

"None of those are reasons to stay or go btw, just... reading your posts, I’m not convinced that a move will actually make you happier, it kind of sounds like you and your DH have very different ideas about life - and that will go with you wherever you live."

I feel for you having lost money on your house. Might be worth getting a second/third opinion on the valuation?

If/when you discussed long term plans years ago, did your husband want to "keep moving forward" in the way that you do? It sounds like he's tried to keep doing so (courses, job moves) but has been unlucky? Or do you feel he's just given up and is happy at the level he's at now, whilst you're not? That's harder to solve. (To be honest with the weather as you've described I think I agree with him about the lack of garden though!)

If your ideal of the house of the size you could afford in Scotland but located in England isn't possible, and the house you have in Scotland now is smaller than you want, then ask yourself if you'd be happier in the same house but transported to London? I think from reading here you would be.

With the clubs etc for your DC I think you'd find when living in a more populated/affluent area you'd have more options, especially if you were willing/able to drive them a bit further, which it sounds like you would.

I think unfortunately the current generation of kids are going to find it harder to get on to the property ladder and generally be upwardly socially mobile than their parents did (and it's already harder for their parents than it was for their parents). As you say, landlords owning 2+ properties doesn't help.

Elsa, up here, you get a surveyor round who does a detailed home report, which we pay for. He then dictates the going price. We can ask for offers over £x amount, and if we are lucky, people might pay more, but I can't see people paying what we paid plus work done, and even breaking even. It's really gutting. The whole point of slumming it here in this property was that we wouldn't be paying much mortgage, so he could do part time work hours and try and get his own projects off the ground (didn't happen), at the same time as trying to save up (somehow this hasn't happened either, and neither of us are big spenders on trivial stuff, or even stuff in general.), and add value as it was very dated. I just can't believe it's gone up so very little, in the several years we've been here plus money ploughed in, and we haven't even added to our savings either, house fail aside. It's pretty devastating.

I don't need to keep moving forward; the next move needs to be our last, as I need to feel settled. I've been in limbo, slumming it, and hate it. It's unsettling and horrible. But he knew this house and area was never going to be our forever home, I was abundantly clear I didn't want to settle up here, and he's known for ages how depressed the climate makes me. I agreed because a job came up that he wanted to go for. It didn't work out - their promises in his interview just didn't really pan out, and it's hampered his next projects, though all he needs is a lucky break. So, he's still trying, and hopefully the next job is the one. He's very capable, and his talents have been wasted, and that is very frustrating. Like many industries, luck plays a part. He's not been lucky for a while.

I want a good garden so we can grow our own food. I'd get a polytunnel to try and grow stuff. As well as a decent space to relax and kick a ball around.

I hope so re clubs. Would hate to pull them from a few things and not get to do them for a while.

It will be pretty impossible for our kids, unless they land incredible jobs, or we gift them a decent deposit, and let them stay at home for a couple of years to help build up their own savings.

That is really unlucky about your house. Hopefully you will get lucky if/when it goes on the market.

Ok, I think I got the wrong end of the stick about your husband earlier - I thought you were saying he was happy to stay in the current job/house and you wanted the changes. But he wants them too, has just been unlucky career wise of late? Is he still working part time and if so could he increase that/you work around it?

Either way I agree job opportunities for him (or for you, I know you mentioned upthread looking for evening work) are going to be more plentiful in and around London. And it seems your heart is there, which is hard to compensate for no matter how nice a house you buy.

Well, you clearly don't like Scotland, and I totally get the weather thing - I absolutely hate going to places with shit weather, no matter how scenic they are, and that would totally ruin a location for me. If you want Home Counties with job prospects I would recommend anywhere in Hertfordshire. Lots of companies have their head offices here (we have good jobs and have never had to commute into London) but it's also about half an hour into London if you do want to go in. Weather's nice too.

Elsa, thanks, I doubt we will get much more than the values price, mortgage lenders won't lend extra, only what the valuation is. I feel utterly sick and even more depressed thinking about the huge financial hit, especially as this was meant to be an interim house to help us save. So we slummed it, in a house I hate, in an area I hate, in a county and nation with dire weather, for not only nothing, but negative money. I just want to cry. 😓

It's not that he likes the house, but it's close to where he works so he likes the five minute walk to work. He hasn't wanted to give that up. I was used to commuting 75 minutes in the mornings and 90 on the way home (timing of connections) and didn't mind it at all. I did it for years. Read loads of books. I think the sacrifice of a nicer property but with a longer commute should be something he is more willing to do.

Yes, he's been unlucky. His industry has a fair few startups and entrepreneurs who talk the talk but when it comes to it, dont know what they are doing, ignore the guys who actually have been in the industry for decades, but many are already wealthy and don't care about the gamble. So it's been about eight years of three bad companies, and that now doesn't look great on his CV. He went part time last year in an effort to run his own projects on his own time, but again, got let down by collaborators, and nothing came of it. He's back to full time now.

It's just demoralising. I feel like we've failed our kids. I really do.

BB, I would like Hertfordshire. I have a very good friend in the Herts/Bucks border area, and would love to be nearer her. Her kids are both within a year if each of mine, and they are good friends.

Please advise which areas are good for nice, friendly, pretty villages with fast train connections to London, and ideally Oxford (good hubs for husband's industry in both regions, less so Herts itself).

I’m in Herts and it is a good weather bubble. We often have good/mild weather compared to elsewhere. Easy trains to London and short drives to Cambridge and Oxford so lots of culture. Family area so loads of clubs.

Home schooling very popular now too.

The villages around Welwyn, Hitchin in are pretty and reasonable for cost.

Downsides - a bit flat compared to lovely Scotland!

Is your relationship happy?

The feeling I get from your posts is that this is about more than location.

I drift between London and Edinburgh and for life with kids I would definitely stay in Scotland. Have you realistically looked at what you can afford in the SE - my one bed flat down here trades up to a family home in a nice part of Edinburgh.

I would want to cry too! Awful to make a sacrifice that comes to nothing. Only upside is that the house has presumably been more pleasant to live in than if you hadn't done it up?

Agree about commutes not being too bad. In fact, as a parent they can give you time to read, listen to podcasts etc that you might not get otherwise!

His industry sounds a bit cutthroat... Glad he was able to get back up to full time though.

I would second Hitchin as mentioned above as a place to look at. I don't live there (live further out of London than you'd like) but have friends there who commute to London, and I think you'd be able to get a family home for £450k.

Op I'm making a similar move (in distance) but in the opposite direction. Just sold our house in Cambridge and moving back to near my home town (Belfast). My dh is English and we've been in this house 15 years. Main reason for move is family support and financial reasons. We've bought a bigger house for half the price in a nicer area. We'll be mortgage free and we're in our mid 30's. Schools are better than here (and option of grammar schools) and I don't feel that dc will be disadvantaged for jobs- I wasn't and neither have my peers been.

I hear you about the weather though, it is the only thing I will miss. I could cry, but my dh and dc hide from the sun, whereas I'm always in the garden. I don't think they'll miss it or the hot unbearable nights. As we will have more money we're thinking of buying a place in the sun, or if not we'll have spare cash to do many holidays.

The SE is just so busy though. Traffic is a nightmare and things are so expensive- simple things like like eating out, drinks, events etc all cost a lot of money.

Good luck in your decision. I know it's not an easy one!

Newgirls, thanks. Can you name any pretty villages to start looking in? With a train station within a mile? Ideally a fast line.

Freak, it was wonderful, but this whole debacle has taken a toll. I'm angry he made us move in the first place, I didn't realise what a gamble it was in his industry, what a struggle it was up here, and angry we are down so much money because he didn't want to commute back then. It was not even a massive commute, compared to what I used to do. I'm gutted that despite my hard work and sacrifices before I met him (to be financially secure and independent), we've gone backwards. And I am annoyed he thinks this is an acceptable home for our children, when if he'd have only stuck at his old job, we could have a home with a garden by now, instead of what we have now. I also think he's known for years how unhappy I was here, mainly with the weather, but also missing my home area and London, and he's only finally now saying we can look at moving. I wanted to move when the kids were younger, too. Now they are in various clubs, I feel it will be a harder move, and I wanted us all to feel settled sooner. So. Yeah. Not great. But I feel this house and the weather really have impacted my mental health, and I will be so much better off back south, much happier, and we can rebuild.
Why would you stay in Scotland? I am anxious we won't be able to afford a good-sized property, we have to see if he can get a better-paying job so we can get a better mortgage. Only then will we know what we can afford.

Elsa, well, yes. It was an utter dive when we bought it. It's still not nice though, in that though it's perfect for students (location, layout), it's dreadful for families, it's a really odd setup, lounge is upstairs, no bathroom on that floor, it just doesn't 'flow'.
I shall research Hitchin, though welcome more villagey vibes if you can recommend any. Thanks for your input.

Good luck with your move, Roowig. I think if you're going home, that helps. Home for me is back south. I don't actually want to live in the exact area I grew up in, couldn't afford it anyway, but near enough that I can see my old friends and hangouts . If only we'd stayed in London, we'd be mortgage free and able to buy somewhere nice by now.
I'm concerned about traffic, I'm happy to live further out/up to take that into account.

Thanks for everyone's input.

It sounds like you are miserable where you are and no amount of choosing the rational path is going to change your mind.

I love Angus and part of me is tempted to live there but I can see why a lot of people would hate it.

I am miserable, but would stay and work on making it work, if I was convinced it was better for the children to be here. A better house is a start. Then more trips south. Or holidays.

Do you think staying is the rational path?
What do you like about Angus? What reasonscdo you think others hate it?

I love the slow pace of life and the beaches, I love the long summer nights when it barely gets dark. I love the history of the place and the fact it is where some of my ancestors came from.

I hate the long dark winters and the fact some people seem to be a decade behind the rest of society and a general lack of diversity. I do think it lacks opportunities for young people in terms of career. Dundee and Aberdeen are great but it's a long trek to the cities.

It's horses for courses, I would utterly hate the noise and business of London. You don't need to justify not liking it.

You sound very isolated. No job and no school mums.
I'm not sure a move south is what you need. It sounds like your marriage is rocky and you'd be taking that with you. London is fine, but it's hard to know what it's going to be like even in the short term. I think I'd be looking at pretty villages close to where you are now, and escaping to London for a few days every couple of months. That way you and the kids could have a real look at it without the rose-tinted glasses.
I agree the Scottish weather takes some getting used to but weatherproof clothes help. Seriously.

For what it's worth, I'm not from London but lived there for over a decade. I moved to Scotland as I thought it was a better place for my child to grow up. I really can't stand the SNP but I do think Scotland has a lot going for it.

I live in a city so have culture on the doorstep and we go to London each year and take in the galleries and the sights. I suspect we see almost as much of London as friends still there do because we make the most of it. Getting to an airport in London is a nightmare, there are fewer flights from Scotland but still okay deals to be had. I hate the weather too but try to make sure we get away a bit.

I find the cost of living lower here generally. If you factor in just the commute cost you would pay down south once you've bought in a commuter town it would likely fund a couple of weekend city breaks for the family per year or an okay summer holiday.

You talk of your kids needing a deposit for property - the cost of university education in England is almost that whereas if you stay in Scotland and they attend university there - no fees to pay. Although London is a property bubble, Edinburgh for example has a very healthy property market. Compared to what you will be able to afford down south I'm sure you can get a bigger/better property in Scotland. I did not struggle greatly to move from my part of the UK to go to London when I was young, if your kids want to do that when the time comes they can, but Scotland isn't a dead end career wise, it will really depend on what they want to do when they are older.

Perhaps you will never be happy here, that in itself is reason to go, but do be careful as you may make the big move and regret it - where a change of scene and a great house might make all the difference to your life in Scotland.

Start with Hertford, Old Welwyn and Hitchin as they have train stations and rightmove searches of 1 mile will bring in local villages too. They are all small and pretty rural on edges.

I would definitely recommend Hitchin, though I've heard Hertford/St Albans/Harpenden are also nice. Letchworth/Baldock are also worth looking at, you get a bit more for your money. Melbourn is meant to be nice and that has a train station nearby.

I don't know much about villages, the ones around Hitchin don't have their own train stations, but Ickleford is basically adjoined to Hitchin so you could still cycle to the station from there.

Ginger, I don't like the slow pace of life!
I don't mind the winters, because winters are supposed to be cold. However, we haven't had much snow, whereas it snowed better in the south over the last few years. I'd prefer a proper winter with some snow, nice and Christmassy. We are close to beaches, but the weather is so windy, they aren't that pleasant.
We couldn't afford to live in London, I just want to do monthly trips in, more easily than we can from here. And set my kids up to get jobs there when they are young adults, should they so wish, without the waste that is renting for a decade.

Tav, I've made friends with lots of mums, through the clubs the kids go to, plus we go to a regular home ed meetup - I actually expect I have better relationships with those mums as we stay for the duration of the sessions and hang out, rather than drop and run like school mums. They are all nice people. I think though that the friends I made at college and uni are the friends who know me best though, and I'd be living closer to them if we moved south.
I have not ruled out staying up here, I've found a few villages I like well enough. I just hate having to be wrapped up in coats so much, I want to feel the sun on my skin, I want to feel lighter, less bogged down.

Cantarina, I used to follow a few of the last minute holiday sites, and there is pretty much nothing from Scotland, well, they are all a few hundred more than going from down south, worse connections/flight times, far less choice.
I used to love being able to hop on the tube and go to LHR that way. So cheap and so easy. Here we pay a fortune on airport carparking, and always have to drive.
We will get a better sized place up here. So that's what I'm weighing up with this post, which option we go for. I'm very very anxious about making a mistake either way. I don't know how old you are but things were much easier back in the day, and are only getting harder for the future generations.
So much to consider.

Newgirls and BB, thanks for the tips.