School and holidays during term time

[Undercarrigetrouble]

dd's school have refused us permission.
We are unable to go any other time as it is unaffordable to us also due to work commitments it is difficult to take leave during the school holidays.
dd has a great attendance record so i think they are being slightly unreasonable.
We are taking her regardless
So what will they do?

Lisa- That is disgraceful attitude of t=your school. I thought that all schools had the exceptional circumstances allowwance.

You should just go, and enjoys yourselves. Hope your DH is feeling better soon.

As a parent who did take their kids out of school to go to a big family event in USA (so exceptional circumstances IMO) and also as a primary school teacher (ex) I can see both sides. I don't think you should take them out just because its cheaper in term time but for exceptional circumstances it is OK. However many teachers have to put up with parents complaing about their kids not knowing how to do certain things which they missed because they were off on holiday. Timetables don't allow for much flexibility these days and if your child misses out on something important, don't blame the teacher.

The root issue is the difference in approaches of schools (although the entitlement culture - to which TGWTC seems so admirably immune - isn't helping matters).

If all state school heads were reviewed on this properly by Ofsted, and not allowed any discretion so that it all had to be recorded as unauthorised absence, then everyone would be treated equally. Which has to be better, no?

I think it would also be reasonable for parents to repay the taxpayers for services they are "using" in terms of taking places away from other people, but not "consuming" in terms of simply not bothering to participate fully. So more substantial fines for unauthorised absences as well.

Lisad123: see, your school has exactly the type of heartless, bureaucratic attitude that I was talking about further up. I am at their response to your request for leave.

Quattro: but how do you then analyse the statistics for "unauthorised absence"? If it's high, do you assume that it's full of truanting kids and therefore a school full of irresponsible parents who can't be arsed getting out of bed to get their child to school? Or do you assume that it's a fair and sensible (in my view!) school who approves reasonble requests for holidays in term-time, but those requests have to officially go down as "unauthorised absence" because of LEA rules?

re: repaying taxpayers for a service you are not "consuming", does that mean that you can claim back council tax from the local council for the week you are away on holiday? Same principle really.

Could you claim tax back for the weeks you weren't at school 'consuming'?
Why would you pay twice?

I take my children out for 3.5 weeks every year before the Christmas holidays. At our school - London primary - this isn't particularly unusual as most children have family abroad. However, I know the school has to explain each case to the LEA which seems to be cracking down on attendance at the moment.

We have always had the full support of their teachers and the Head. In fact at least two of their teachers have said it is less disruptive for children to miss a chunk of term than days here and there. We have also been asked to move our dates a bit this year so ds1 can have a part in the school play they do in year 5.

We have always considered ourselves really lucky to have a school where this is possible. The benefits of the children being abroad (seeing family, learning another language etc) are to my mind far more important than making Christmas cards, watching videos and the other non-academic activities they seem to do at the end of the Christmas term. Neither ds has ever missed out on learning very much as far as I am aware.

Anyway, my point is that you can't have blanket bans on holiday in term time because for many children this would mean not knowing their relatives or the cultures they are from. As others have said, it's not always about 2 weeks on the beach in Spain.

I realise I may be out of sync with everyone else in this thread but I question the approach to insisting that kids slavishly follow rules...rules are there for a reason - sure but they are just hoops that need to be jumped through at times...and sometimes that's all I can say to my kids, as some of the rules they are excepted to adhere to seem to me to be a load of over-controlling nonsence.

juule, no, of course I don't mean missing 10 days of school invalidates the other 37 weeks.

Just, be honest about it. You maybe don't think they don't learn anything / miss anything in missing 2 weeks of school. But that's what some people say (and have said on this thread) - in which case, yes, why bother with school at all. If 2 weeks doesn't matter, how can the other weeks? Or is yr child missing two special weeks in which nobody learns anything ?

lisa123 I do think that a case like yours is rather different to be honest. Hope you manage to sort something out.

Yeah you're right Clary - once you've missed 2 weeks of schooling there's no point in attending the other 35.

I don't see so much being learnt on the last two weeks of summer term lots of videos being watched at our school - or the Christmas term - going over the nativity again, for the upteenth time - .

Part of my contract, as a teacher, is to teach the children for 37 weeks per year, with no break during these weeks. Surely, another part of that contract is that parents populate the classrooms over that period, and we all take the same holidays? The holidays are plenty long enough - how often are we teachers berated in the press about our long holidays?

If term time holidays became the norm and were authorised by the school, it would make the teachers' jobs very difficult, as they are obliged to help children catch up what they have missed - I've been asked that by an Ofsted inspector.

well I'm glad you are all so clever you can spot those weeks when nobody learns anything so there's no point going to school.

Have you told all the other parents?

What I am trying to say is that if you value those weeks you miss so little, how can you then place a high value on the other weeks?

It seems to me my DS2 is learning something every day he goes to school. I think school is amazingly important and I don't want him to miss any. At least my attitude is logical.

But school isn't the only place you learn. Education does not only happen in schools - my kids recieved a great educaction while in Australia for 4 weeks - I might not want to give them that experience for 52 weeks a year but I find it completely acceptable for those 2 weeks taken out of term time...being a slave to the system is not always the best approach to your child's education.

No I know school isn't the only place you learn.

But it's just dishonest sophistry (imo) to give that as the reason for taking them out of it for a holiday when the real reason is that it's cheaper then.

You can have an educational holiday in the holiday time too, y'know. Or just a piffling about on the beach one - which is what I suspect most peopel do, let's face it.

It might not always be "a fortnight in spain" as someone said, but it often is.

I would never take my kids on holiday during school time. Plenty of time for hols in holiday time imo

A piffling about on the beach type of holiday is good to help people relax. It might not be about academic learning but it can be valuable all the same.
Yes, it can be done in holiday time but not if you can't afford to get away in holiday time. If you can get a better quality of holiday or a different experience for your money why should you have to forgo that? Lots of people work hard all year round and it seems unreasonable not to let them have a choice of how they spend their money, have a family holiday for 2 weeks out of 52. If the best option for their family falls in term-time and it isn't detrimental to their child's long-term education then why deny them that 2 weeks?
And no, there isn't a magic 2 weeks where nothing gets done, but in the overall scheme of things most work is repeated at some point anyway. Of course, the other weeks in school would be valued. As has already been said it's the attitude during the other weeks in school which influence the child about overall attitude to school. If the other weeks are shown as important to the child and the holiday regarded as a special break then there should be no problem in how the weeks in school are valued.

It's not just the education they miss (agree that 2 weeks can easily be made up) but 2 weeks worth of friendship development/change/group dynamic shifting would be much harder to make up. A lovely holiday could very well be followed by the discovery that your best friend was now somebody else's best friend and didn't want to sit next to you at lunch any more.

hmmm, not much of a best friend, then. And maybe if that fickle, best friend might just drop new friend to chat about exciting hols old best friend has just been on.
Lots of ifs and maybes but not really great reasons.

ALL 5 year olds are fickle. And it matters a lot at that age.

I agree that 5 year olds are fickle I also think that at that age they are a bit unpredictable with their friendships too, even if they see each other every day.

wll we are going anyways, I know my dd1 well enough to know whats good for her. Yes 2 weeks off school, she may miss bits but she is a bright kids and only 6years old, so imo she'll learn loads on our holiday (we have lots of day trips planned)

I'm sorry - I am clearly in the minority here, but, seriously, is having a holiday on the beach the only way for some people to relax? I really don't get it. I can totally see why there may be very exceptional cases, such as Lisas case, but other than that, it all seems to be about this consumer i-want-it-and-i-want-it-now attitude. If you can't afford to go away one year in the holidays, save up and go away the next. School is so much more than academic instruction and I guess I just value and respect the fact that my children have such great, positive experiences there PLUS we have good times in the holidays with each at home or around the area (and up until very recently we were in a big city).

I really wish people would be straight about this. Take holidays in term time if you want to, but don't say it's for educational purposes. It's because it's cheaper. And there will be downsides for the child in terms of friendships and so on, and there will be downsides in terms of the parent's relationship with the school. If those downsides are worth it then go ahead, but don't try to justify it in anything but economic terms!

Unless it's a long haul trip to visit Granny in Australia, in which case I would be amazed if any school refused permission.

girlwithacurl if you are happy with your choice, then fine. Why get worked up because it isn't the best choice for other families?

Seeker Would it make it okay to you if people said that it was purely an economic decision? It probably is for some people. Why do you need the admission from them? What difference would it make if they admitted it to you. Anyone who wanted a term-time holiday is going to find it difficult to say to the school that it's purely financial as that might mean they wouldn't get permission from some headteachers.

well well done for all those can afford a holiday out of term time, but im sorry not always possible for everyone. The school holidays add £1K to most holidays!

As a teacher I would say if you feel you must take a holiday in term time think very carefully about the timing. Beginnings of years (whatever age your child is ) should be avoided.

I'm not sure 2 weeks can be made up if the school is following the literacy and numeracy framework, seeker, they may totally miss out on an area of study because it moves on so quickly, and won't be taught until it is repeated in the next year group which is always a disadvantage.