School and holidays during term time

[Undercarrigetrouble]

dd's school have refused us permission.
We are unable to go any other time as it is unaffordable to us also due to work commitments it is difficult to take leave during the school holidays.
dd has a great attendance record so i think they are being slightly unreasonable.
We are taking her regardless
So what will they do?

I spoke to the HT personally about taking the children out for one week. We had the opportunity for a very cheap holiday (this country)later in the term. I spoke to her as actually DS2 does not have a good attendance record due to a serious operation and very poor health (DS1's is perfect bar one afternoon when he came to see his brother in hospital). I explained about the holiday and she told me to go, poor DS2 has had a tough time recently and that she understood that and the importance of us all spending time together for fun.

I would not take my children out of school to go on holiday. DS1 missed 1 day when he was in year 1 because it was his godmothers wedding (at the other end of the country) that day but other than that they have not been take out of school for anything.

Last year we went abroad over the summer, this year we can not afford to go - so will stay in England rather than take DSs out of school.

They are both at primary school but I stress the importance of going to school and think that it would be double standards to remove them from school as and when I felt like it. How could I enforce attendance and patrol truancy at secondary school if I have taught them that a holiday in the sun is more important than their education?

I think it shows a lack of respect for school to take your children out of school - imagine if your child's class teacher was off for 2 weeks term time because she wanted to take advantage of cheap holidays and they had 10 different supply teachers and then the head is off.... plenty of people would be on here complaining about their schools then.

Perhaps part of the difference in attitude might also be due to differences in circumstance, so I agree with CHA to that extent.

Reception age children are not going to miss as much as a 9-11 year old or an 11-18 year old. Also it sounds as though some of the schools are variable ("What will they miss ....colouring in and glitter or maybe playing in the sand").

I don't think money has anything to do with it though.

I would also agree with the ages.
I don't even consider it an issue in foundation and KS1.
I'm not sure about KS2.
Definately not for secondary unless more exceptional circumstances - ie I wouldn't do it for a 1 week holiday for my convience, I may do it for a week tagged onto say the 2 week Easter holidays to have a "holiday of a life time" to a long haul destination.

I know someone who had taken her 13/14yo ds out of school for 6+ months to go on a round the world trip, tbh he probably has got more out of that than school - alhough he will probably be behind in certin aspects of his formal national circirculum education.

Just asked the DCs (9&11) how they would feel about a holiday in term-time. They were horrified.

See how well I have indoctrinated them

The issue for them was missing so much school. It's not just catching up with the work, there's all the sport etc.

"Imo Message: We can't afford to go during holidays so - because we need time together as a family away from everyday stresses - let's do it in term."

Need time together = need to go on holiday? That's where the logic escapes me. One day this week the parent I care for is going to my sister's. Each of my kids has invited a friend. We're doing our annual "video game without video". It involves water pistols and an assault course with clues to be followed. Get the magic flower and you can exchange your water pistol for a cannon. You can also earn coloured water and super powers. The first team to complete the course gets 60 seconds with the (borrowed) jet spray. Soaking a parent gets double points. A bit of a dumb idea but it works and takes up most of the day. I hear there are books with better ideas - must check Amazon.co.uk out sometime.

My argument isn't so much about the breaking of the rules but in what our financially asture forebearers would consider irreponsible spending. If I could only afford a term time holiday I'd consider my financial situation too shaky to go throwing a few hundred pounds on a holiday of any description. And it can hardly be argued that a few hundred pounds on a holiday is affordable but a couple of bus tickets isn't (@ juule).

A holiday may be "enriching" or "needed" but there is an inevitability about the annual holiday that's very British. Millions of people around the world (including in rich countries) manage quite perfectly without one. I just don't see the argument as to why it has to be done even when the money isn't around.

No curlyhaired assessin, I never said if you can't afford £700 you can't afford a holiday.

It's a big house we take in a seaside town. A smaller house out of town would be a lot cheaper (6 of us go on hol together). A very rapid flick through a website has revealed several cottages sleeping 4 at less than £450 a week top price. Some less than £300.

If you can't afford that and don't have a big car and camping equipment (or someone to borrow it from) then maybe then you can't afford a holiday. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic - we only have one part-time salary here atm, so not rolling in it.

Actually, most people do go on hols in holiday time - that's the reason they cost so much more and still sell out first (doh!)

Karise - if yr DD is bored with 90% of the curriculum, I think there are other issues herethan whether or not to take her out of school And that is hardly the point is it? Surely most DC are *not bored with the easy work at school? Mine certainly aren't!

quattro it made me laugh (sort of) when a parent I know who took her child out of school for a trip abroad (not sure why it wasn't in hols time) wanted the PTA to reshoot the school calendar because her DD has missed the day we took photos as she was on said hol...

We said no.

Clary - not seriously?

Another random thought which I'm reluctant to mention but it was alluded to lower down the thread.

I wonder if part of the difference is state vs private? Unauthorised absences simply don't happen at either of the DC's schools (both private), whereas from what has been said on the thread, it sounds quite commonplace in the state sector? Maybe the effect of paying through the nose for something directly affects people's attitudes?

Yes really.

I felt it adequately made the point that in a week a child will miss all kinds of things at school - not "just" a tranche of their education, as vital at FS2 as at yr6 IMO - but also maybe a visit from a poet, a trip out, a gardening session, a certificate in assembly, choir, recorder club, school fair, yes, school calendar photo...

I know some people - including one family of teachers - who do house swaps in the summer, which is surely a cheap way of going to interesting places. Of course, it's not so great for your visitors if you live on a run down estate, and we wouldn't dare as our house is so messy. But it does work for lots of families.

DadatLarge It isn't just a couple of bus tickets,though. It's at least 1 adult and 5 children?
I would rather spend the money of a return fare plus around £200 (cost possibly covered by shopping vouchers?)to take the children away for 4 nights to the seaside rather than the same fare for a day trip and a couple of hours out.

And regarding our 'financially astute forbears' wouldn't they be appalled at people paying 2 to 3 times more than the same holiday in term-time? Isn't that just throwing money away?

But having said that, we haven't haven't had a holiday away from home for years, term-time or otherwise. And yes, we've managed quite well but a break away once in a while would be nice.

Quatro Perhaps the majority of people who can afford to send their children to private schools also have no problem with the cost of holidays.

Clary Regarding the school calendar - some people are unbelievable at times.

If I thought that my child would miss anything by a week away from school then I wouldn't do it.

Juule I am not particularly against holidays in term time, but of course your child will miss out by having a week out of school, whatever their age!

Well yes they would miss out by virtue of the fact that they are not there. Whether they would miss anything that would cause them problems is another matter.

Clary: "but also maybe a visit from a poet, a trip out, a gardening session, a certificate in assembly, choir, recorder club, school fair, yes, school calendar photo... "

DS's school has this sort of activity happening regularly all year round. There is a particularly large number of activities like this happening in Reception, which DS is in. A family's annual holiday does not happen regularly throughout the year. In fact, when we go away for a week in June one of the days he will be off the class is going on a trip to the cinema, something that they've already done already this year. I'm pretty sure that he would rather forgo the cinema trip with school for a week at the seaside with his family.

I think it's pretty clear from this thread that people have their vastly differing opinions on this matter and there's not much swaying of opinion happening either way!

Just out of interest, I wonder if those people who are against term-time hoidays have children who attend (perhaps) over-subscribed, very academic and competitive schools where the focus is on academic achievement? It would just be interesting to discover how our opinions become so entrenched and important to us.

Or maybe it's just something we do because our parents did it with us, or because most other parents in the school do it so we think that's the accepted way?

DadatLarge Just curious, where do you do your 'video game without a video'? Doesn't it require a lot of space?

CHA, I'm against term time holidays and DS is in a state village school so neither private or over subscribed.

I just believe that 13 weeks holiday is enough time to go away if you choose to and that children should be taught to respect school and its rules. Parents teaching them that its ok to skip school to lie on a beach teaches children its ok to truant and it can also impact on their work ethic in future employment.

I also believe that teachers work hard enough without having to do extra work caused by term time holidays and that other children should not have to re-do work or be kept behind whilst "catch up" goes on for those who missed it. Different if off through sickness as its unavoidable.

Perhaps if fines were higher and given for every term time holiday then they would gradually phase out and people would use the 13 weeks holiday that they already get.

I opened an ISA and started saving £5 a week, as circumstances have changed and I have got better at budgeting I have gradually increased it and now have £15 a week going into it so that we will be able to afford a holiday. DH is a teacher and I am sure that the parents would be up in arms if he took any time off during term time.

As children we never had a holiday away as my parents just couldn't afford it. Dad worked a full time and 2 part time jobs and Mum worked as a dinner lady so she was home when we were home. We went onthe odd day trip and sometimes spent a week at one of the grand parents. We were the norm among my school as well, people did not expect to go away on holidays. This culture of I need it so I am going to have it and damn the rest really gets on my nerves.

This year we are going to have a week away in at a caravan holiday park with my in-laws, splitting the cost between us.

juule, let's just say that any self-respecting detached house would be embarrased by the small size of our garden. The game could also be played in certain public spaces with prior permission.

Some Term-time advocates who argue affordability seem to be saying that because someone's in a position to pay more tax (and contribute more to education funding) it's fair that they should pay more for their holidays.

"Or maybe it's just something we do because our parents did it with us..."

That's true. Also, there was a time when a holiday was a luxury. Over the years it became habit. There's an element of everyone does it so if we don't then it looks like we can't afford to or we're just tight. The holiday has also become a measure of affluence. If you've been every year and don't go this year, your friends are going to suspect a problem. What do you talk about when they are comparing holiday notes? The Holiday has sort of creeped into the nation's budgets and must-do lists like paying council tax and getting the boiler serviced.

But, I appreciate that everyone has their own views so I won't attempt to convince you how liberating it is to not have that holiday habit. ;)

CHA You are right in that my DCs do attend very competitive and academic schools. It would be literally unthinkable for anyone to take time off in termtime. I can only recall one incident of special permission to have two weeks off for a holiday in term-time when the girls' mother had just died.

Looking at this more broadly though, the type of school my DCs attend is more of a symptom than an underlying cause of the difference of opinion. It would be literally unthinkable for me to take time off in the term-time. So perhaps I've got the type of school that suits me, ultimately, and now the DCs as well.

I absolutely don't accept the argument that money comes into it at all. The evidence from this thread demonstrates that there are parents from all income levels who don't take holidays in termtime. It's an issue of values - which is why I think there is little movement on it in the discussions between posters - and it is not dependent upon money.

I certainly wouldn't be among the some that that would say it's fair that some people should have to pay more for a holiday than others dependant on their income. Why would anyone think that?

I also don't think that an annual holiday away from home is a necessity. As I've said, we haven't had one for years. So, I don't think we qualify for the "holiday habit"

I don't have an issue with termtime holidays at primary level. In fact we have taken the kids out for additional days round October half term to go to Florida, not because it's cheaper but because it's too hot in the summer.

I wouldn't do it at secondary level though

DadAtLarge, "There's an element of everyone does it so if we don't then it looks like we can't afford to or we're just tight. The holiday has also become a measure of affluence. If you've been every year and don't go this year, your friends are going to suspect a problem."

Do you really think people take holidays to keep up with the Jones's? That's very sad if it's true. If we couldn't afford to go away on a holiday of any kind one year, then I wouldn't feel any shame in saying that to the mums at DS's school (most of whom seem to be much more well off than us).

Saying that, I think it possibly IS a trap that some people could fall into - the whole buying into the idea of a "lifestyle". I can't stand that word - it conjures up images of credit card debt caused by people spending beyond their means to have the latest "must-have" designer handbag or shoes. (can't stand that magazine phrase either - a "must-have" item).

Happy Mum of One: "Perhaps if fines were higher and given for every term time holiday then they would gradually phase out and people would use the 13 weeks holiday that they already get." Maybe, but in that case I could see holidays just not being available - the demand would be too huge. Demand would outstrip supply and wouldn't that then cause prices to soar? Which would then mean that only the very well-off could ever afford a holiday. I wouldn't want a society where that happened.

Plus.......if all families had to take their holidays during school holidays, what would happen to holiday companies the rest of the year - demand would be too LOW for some types of holidays, and that would be another reason that holidays during school holidays would become even more expensive - they would also have to put prices up to recoup losses made on all the unfilled vacancies during term-time.

And what about working parents - I can't imagine many workplaces being able to let all their employees who are parents take the same few weeks off to go on holiday.