School and holidays during term time

[Undercarrigetrouble]

dd's school have refused us permission.
We are unable to go any other time as it is unaffordable to us also due to work commitments it is difficult to take leave during the school holidays.
dd has a great attendance record so i think they are being slightly unreasonable.
We are taking her regardless
So what will they do?

[mrz]

Katiestar "what will they miss" the reason we have something called the foundation stage is because it is recognised that the very first years of a child's life are when they learn most and future learning is built upon.
Think of all the milestones in the first five years of a child's life walking talking and just making sense of the world around them. If anything "A" levels are a society measure of "learning" and possibly have less value as life skills than the skills children learn in their first years of school, certainly learning to be part of a group and recognising that there has to be give and take begins that first day.
Experts have recognised the most important "measure" of future success is the dispositions and attitudes towards learning that children display in their first years at school. Not literacy or maths but attitude and often this attitude is a mirror of parents attitude positive or negative.

As to schools losing deposits for cancelling visits. Schools set dates for payments prior to the date when they would have to pay for cancelling for just that reason.

[juuule]

"certainly learning to be part of a group and recognising that there has to be give and take begins that first day."

Those things don't happen only in school.

[mrz]

No juuule but children arrive at school with a huge spectrum of experiences and unfortunately many children start school unable to take turns or share because they haven't had to, unable to listen because interrupting when others are talking is accepted, and unable to use talk to negotiate because screaming is effective. Coping in a class and a school environment is very different to coping at home and those first few weeks are vital.
I realise parents sometimes have no choice about holidaying during term time but I would ask them to think very carefully about timing. Please not the first week of the new school year.

[CurlyhairedAssassin]

Just a question for all those who are staunchly against taking children out of school in term-time.

Are you against it because you can easily afford to take your family away in school holidays? I wonder.......what about those of us who would really struggle to afford the extra few hundred quid that it would be to take a week's holiday in school holiday time? We have struggled to cobble together the money for a week's self-catering in Cornwall this year. We would like to go to the same place again next year, but having looked at the prices in school holiday times we would not be able to afford it. We just would not. Does that mean that we should not have a family holiday at all, or should we only have a cheapo few days in a grotty caravan a few miles from our house?

I do sometimes think that those who get on their high horse about some of us taking term-time holidays should actually give a little thought to our financial situations.

Believe me, if next year we suddenly had loads of money, I would much prefer to go in school holiday time because I DO believe school attendance is very important. But I believe that a once a year week's holiday with family is equally as important in a child's life, and I don't believe I should be made to feel guilty it just because some of you can AFFORD to have the choice.

[mrz]

CurlyhairedAssassin I understand what you are saying and do sympathise (we've not had a family holiday in years) but look at it this way what if the teacher decided to take his/her holiday in term time because he/she couldn't afford to go in the school holidays...

[Karam]

I agree Curly haired. I love it when people say that those who take their kids out of school should just 'not go abroad then' or 'take cheeper holidays'. If only that were an option. By going term time, I can share the costs of the holiday with my parents... which means that my holiday this year will cost me £200 (half of a caravan at Haven in Early july, booked last September with a big discount). If anyone can find me a weeks holiday for less than £200 in the summer holidays, then I'd be interested to know where!

[ellingwoman]

Buy a tent

Seriously, I'm a TA and can't take holidays in term time. Camping/caravanning costs under £200 a week for a family of five. And having your home on your back you can go anywhere!

[juuule]

How do you transport all the stuff, Ellingwoman. Will it all fit in a small 5-seater? And you're a bit stuck if you've not got a car I presume. Or do you carry it all?

[ellingwoman]

Well some campers use public transport but probably a car is a must - even if only for sitting in on site if it is particularly wet and windy!

Camping you could do with a small car depending on how much you want to take. Caravanning needs a big car to tow with as most caravans now are so well-equipped they weigh a lot.

Don't camp so much now as old and unfit so have a nice caravan. We go away for about 3 holidays a year and numerous weekends. All together cost well under £1000 including food.

[juuule]

But ellingwoman you would have paid for your caravan, site fees, paid for the car to pull it and things associated with car. I think it's not as straightforward as saying 3 holidays a year for £1000.
If someone doesn't have a car or their own caravan or a car big enough to transport people and stuff, what then.
£200 out of term time sounds a better option to me for Karam.
(obviously I don't know Karam's transport situation)

[juuule]

in term time

[hatesponge]

if you have your own touring caravan - ie not kept on a site all year round - although you can go away for weekends etc all the time, and only pay fees for the pitch, you have still got to pay for the caravan initially, and also find (& pay for) somewhere to keep it the rest of the time, as most people dont have a driveway big enough, certainly not in urban areas

[juuule]

And presumably you would need a car big enough to tow it.

[ellingwoman]

After the initial outlay caravanning holidays are cheap, especially for a family of more than 2 children. I initially came to this thread about camping which needs a minimal initial outlay and not necessarily any transport.

They don't compete with out of season holiday camp type holidays but a change of outlook from a ££££ holiday abroad is not out of the question. This is what we did.

[juuule]

But that's the point, ellingwoman, some people are not looking at swopping holiday abroad for holiday at home. Some are just looking to get away.
I don't think that you can lightly dismiss the inital costs of camping and caravanning, either. We looked into it and it wasn't doable for us.

"They don't compete with out of season holiday camp type holidays "
Which is why some people need that option.

[DadAtLarge]

CHA, you ask, "what about those of us who would really struggle to afford the extra few hundred quid that it would be to take a week's holiday in school holiday time"

I say don't take a holiday. I don't understand the British obssession with holidays. Weird. The moment the weather turns a little nice here everyone wants to leave the country.

We can afford to take the children away during the holidays but we have more fun right here. I agree that it's important to spend a week with the kids. Taking them away to a resort in Spain and lounging at a pool while they take care of themselves ... is some people's idea of spending quality time with the kids. It may not be yours but why do you feel you have to leave the country to enjoy family time?

[DadAtLarge]

Caravanning is just one idea. There are thousands of things to do right here in the UK. For the half term we've got planned days at the beach, exploring local woods and parks etc. We've allocated one day for building a castle in the garden (we've got lots of cardboard boxes, water paints, tape, rope for the drawbridge etc. We're doing this on request - they did it last year and had so much fun).

[juuule]

DadatLarge - CHA wasn't talking about a holiday abroad.

[DadAtLarge]

I could have worded it better - the latter part is more a general comment rather than to CHA. But whether it's going abroad or booking a holiday elsewhere in the UK (Centre Parcs etc), the point was that you don't need to leave town.

[mankyscotslass]

I agree with DadatLarge.

We can't afford to go abroad on holiday in school holidays, or even to some holiday camps in the UK.

But we still have 2 weeks together as a family and plan days out/activities. The kids love it, and we get to spend quality time together.

It's amazing what activities are on your doorstep that you don't know about til you hunt them out! If nothing else we are inventive.

The kids would love to go in a plane somewhere, because most of their friends do, but accept that we don't do that, not yet anyway!

[DadAtLarge]

Yes, Quattro, it's a dangerous strategy to pull the HE trick. If it's a popular school you won't get back in. What does that say? If you value the school enough and others value it too don't play games.

But, imagine a different education funding setup where instead of collecting taxes and providing "free" education our government removed that part of the tax and charged everyone for each school place. I suspect that many would change their tune and insist on keeping the kids in school if they were paying £40 per day per child for every day of the holiday (like we do with the private nursery we send our youngest C to).

[Karam]

Buy a tent

But of course, the costs of doing that is not under £200 though is it? As I currently do not own anything even remotely related to camping I very much doubt that I'd be able to buy the tent, sleeping bads and air beds, cooking equipment and whatever else is needed for under £200 would I?

Yes of course it would pay itself over a number of years, but the issue is having the money now!

And I don't think I'd fit it into my toyota Yaris - That only manages one suitcase, one pushchair a box of food and a box of toys for the week (in case of wet weather). So I would also need to buy a trailer or hire a car large enough to carry everything.

Going camping is not going to cost me less than £200 this year. So the challenge is back on!!

Love the assumption that we all skip schools for foreign holidays - I've not been abroad since before I got pregnant with DD1 6 years ago!!

[Clary]

curlyhairedassassin wrt the increased price of holidays in holiday time and how people afford that; we don't spend lots of money on our hols.

This year we are self-catering in the UK and the hosue is costing £700 for a week. There are 6 of us going; I guess with say 4 people it could cost a lot less. And there are many other cheaper options available around the country (eg caravan, Haven/Butlins site, camping!)

If you don't have that kind of money to spend on a school-hols holiday, then maybe you can't afford one. We don't have a holiday home in the South of France, three cars, a huge five bed detached house, or lots of designer clothes. I know lots of people who do but I don't think that means they are a right of mine!

Dadatlarge's suggestions for quality time in the back garden are great!

[CurlyhairedAssassin]

Me neither, Karam. DH's family keep wanting us to go with them to Florida where they go every year. Was shocked the other day to hear SIL say "We got a bargain with our flights this year - 1200 quid." (or was it 1400? whatever) My mouth fell open and I said "We won't even be spending that on our whole holiday this year - far, far from that amount in fact."

I would just be happy staying in the UK for a week's holiday anyway, DadAtLarge. I do think it's important to try and get away somewhere for a change of scene. There's only so many times you can go to the same old museums, country parks etc locally without wistfully wanting to explore further afield. And it broadens the children's horizons too.

Oh, and DadAtLarge, as for your other comment "I say don't take a holiday." Don't you think that's a bit harsh? Some of my best childhood memories are of a caravan holiday by the beach in Wales or Cornwall, exploring the rock pools and walking along the coastal paths. I would be devastated if someone told me that my kids couldn't have the opportunity to make their own holiday memories simply because "school is just so important" blah blah.

And good for you that you live close enough to a beach to be able to take your children there for the day as a matter of course during the half-term holidays. Some of us don't.

And you say you can afford to go away during the school holidays but just choose not to. Well, again, that's your choice. But at least you have the bloody choice! There are people that don't, and live in the city and would LOVE to give their kids the chance to have a week in the fresh air by the sea or in the countryside.

Am getting all wound up now.....some people just dont' think how others' situations might differ to their own.

Mrz, presumably if you've chosen to work in a school then you've considered the whole holiday dilemma and accepted that it's just part of the terms and conditions of the job.

As for the cheaper options of camping and caravanning etc, I love caravanning holidays actually - had some great ones as a kid but like others have said, there's the huge initial outlay of buying a tourer. We would love to do that but just haven't got the money to buy one. So the second option would be to rent a static one for a week somewhere. Which is precisely the type of holiday I'm talking about some of us only being able to afford - and it's even a struggle during term-time.

[CurlyhairedAssassin]

Clary, again, I think it's a bit harsh to say that if you can't afford 700 to spend on a school hols holiday then you can't afford a hoiday full stop and the implication is that you just shouldn't go on holiday then.

Sorry, I just don't agree. Personally, we probably COULD afford to do that, but I would never have the heart to say to someone who could definitely only afford to do it in term-time that they just shouldn't have a holiday at all then. I imagine that a family who couldn't afford to do what you're doing in school holiday time would be unlikely to afford any year round treats like days out like you possibly could, and a holiday in term time could possibly be the one thing they look forward to all year. I just think a bit more understanding from the more well-off among us towards the less well-off would be a bit more appropriate.

I also wonder how you'd feel if, just hypothetically speaking, most people COULD just about afford to take their annual holiday in school holiday time, and by EVERYONE wanting to book the same few weeks, holidays simply became unavailable through sheer demand, and choice became severely limited, if families were able to book anything at all?

Anyway, sorry, OP for hijacking and ranting a bit. It has just wound me up the way that some people don't seem to consider people's different individual situations.