I found out this morning that my children have been saying prayers before lunch...

[cece]

We deliberately chose a non-church school (most of the local schools to us are church schools) as we are not religious and did not want our children educated in this way. In fact it is a community school.

But today DS told us that they say prayers before they go for lunch. DD (who is now in the juniors, so was there for 3 years) confirmed this... She knew the words off by heart.

Now I am not happy (at all) about this, and neither is DH.

My question is should I complain?

Ah well, its supposedly on the rise in China - according to today's papers - so no gnashing there

'It's crap that human beings 'need spirituality' '

Speaking personally a spiritual side is very important to me, I am not sure that organised religion gives it to me but there are things that I would like to explore when time.
Your views are fine for you SGB-as long as you don't impose them on your DCs.
I would say that people in general need a spiritual side, communism did it's best to get rid of religion and failed dismally.
A surprising number of scientist have a belief in God.

Funnily enough Seeker (or Piscesmoon), I do feel the same and often object to "Jesus" being part of transcendence, as if naming it somehow makes it too small. But I think that is because I did not grow up in a religious environment, beauty was all around me but not organised religion so I never really linked the two. I still find it much easier to relate to the Holy Spirit. It is almost painful to think God is or could be a person.
Children find these things much simpler.

You see, while many people have religious beliefs and manage to be perfectly lovely people despite this, religion is in general so toxic that I will be making a reasonable effort to ensure my DS doesn't take to it. I don't want him thinking that some imaginary being has given him control over women, for instance, or made him (if he turns out heterosexual) superior to people who are not heterosexual. I don't want him to be afraid of some non-existent creature that is going to watch him all the time, sulk if he doesn't devote time to 'worshipping' it and maybe even kill him if he isn't sufficiently obedient (and while I am aware that children frequently get scared by fictional monsters/horror stories/history lessons, this is not quite the same as trusted adults telling them that nasty misogynistic scary mythology is really true). I don't want him to be made to feel that his body or sexual urges are dirty or wrong. I don't want him to get the idea that people can be divided into 'them' and 'us' to the point of violence purely on the grounds of which myth system they claim loyalty to.

What is the big deal??

Thank goodness they are teaching these kids to give grace and thanks before they eat their meal.
My son doesn not attend a church school and he says a prayer before each meal because he was taught so from home.

I honestly think with all the madness in the world right now this is the last of our worries.
When they start teaching them to hate then... start worrying. I just think sometimes us parents make a big deal out of things and then wonder why the kids do the same. Be glad, and give thanks for the fact we got food to eat.

'They would refer you to the education act that gives them no choice.' - Yes, I understand that they have to have some kind of spiritual content in assemblies or whatever, but I still object to DS coming home and spouting Christian beliefs as though they are facts. If he occasionally told me things about other religions I wouldn't mind as much, but it's always 'Jesus died at Easter' etc. I'm very much in favour of religious education, but it just doesn't seem balanced so far.

My dad went to a Catholic boardingschool SGB and felt much as you do. I think he felt so oppressed by the system and dogma that he never could feel at ease with churches again. But don't you think it is a bit like family life, where people have bad family experiences but it doesn't mean FAMILIES are bad?
I quite agree that "values" should not be used to disguise misogyny or homophobia but I don't think you would find any simple prayers in your child's primary school offering this view of the world.

Cece - it concerns me that children from one class say this prayer in classroom, not in hall and that other children don't join in.

I would check the school's policy with a quick call to the head as it sounds like the teacher's going a bit freestyle here.

Actually, I am 'religious' and wouldn't mind prayers and what have you, but I would be concerned at this set up and would want it clarifying.

I would be interested to hear what response you get from the school

As I said, I know many lovely peole who happen to be religious -and FWIW the religion I got forcefed at primary school was not the worst sort of stuff, really just boring and pointless. But I do worry about the kind of blind acceptance some people seem to have about religion being a Good Thing, and the privileges accorded to religious belief in general which means that it becomes harder to challenge the more toxic bits once they start surfacing in schools.

OK - for those of you who don't think that getting non-Christian children to pray to a non Christian God is not big deal, just imagine how you would feel if your child was being asked to pray to Allah, or Shiva? Or to stand in a Pentacle and make an offering to the Mother Goddess? Or (extreme, I know) to worship Satan?

Sorry - I meant "pray to a Christian God"....!

You would never guess from your posts SGB that the central message of Christianity is 'love your neighbour as yourself'!

Worshipping Satan is a bad example though isn't it? Because Christians would actually believe in Satan.

I am about as athestic as it comes, and for that reason I wouldn't be in the slightest bit bothered if the children said prayers before lunch. It's just words; it doesn't mean a thing so far as I'm concerned.

Quite apart from that, there's nothing wrong with children being exposed to that part of our culture (after all, much of the English language comes from the bible). Being educated about it doesn't equal believing in it.

My DD has come home from school this week telling me all about Jesus (and it's not a 'religious' school). Fine by me. DS (6) and his church-going classmate have had various discussions on the back of school teachings about religion. I am all in favour! If they are discussing this kind of thing, I think it's great. DS claims he believes in factories, not God; DD is in love with Jesus. Whatever!

Here we go again.

The children are not being taught ABOUT religion. They are being taught that one particular religion is true.

Would those who see it as harmless be ok with seances in school and if not why not?

How about satanism? after all if your children are taught to worship satan you can just tell them to ignore it can't you.

The only reason christians post in these threads saying it's harmless is because it's teaching their beliefs.

I'd object to them teaching any lies or fantasies in school. I don't want them learning that 2 + 2 = 5 or that cars move because invisible goblins push them along.

I see seeker beat me to it on satanism, but it's a reasonable question so let's hear from the christians how that would be ok with them

Excellent posts on this thread by piscesmoon, swanriver, mumnotrobot and dottoresa.

I loved singing hymns at school and saying prayers for others. My children do too. We enjoy watching songs of praise together and singing along!

I don't know why people feel the need to cut christianity out of life. I love listening to choral music. I suppose if you are as anti-christianity/religion as some people on this thread you never allow yourselves the pleasure of listening to uplifting choral works such as the "Messiah". I really feel you are missing out on a lot. You are trying to ensure that your children are spiritually deprived too...it is as though you are so worried they may end up believing something different to you, you don't want to give them the chance to find out about christianity and other religions.

Saying prayers encourages children to think of others which seems no bad thing.

Thank goodness religion is still taught in schools. Otherwise some children would never find out about it at all.

Happywomble, I believe in no gods whatsoever and yet that doesn't stop me being able to enjoy the Messiah - why should it? I went to two live performances of it last year in fact, and was as uplifted as anyone there, I assure you :D The music of the Messiah and many other choral works is sublime, it needs no religion within you to find it so.

Thats wonderful merryponymum! I'm glad you like choral works too. I certainly hope one can enjoy such things whatever ones opinion on religion is.

However do you have a problem with children singing joyful hymns such as "we plough the fields and scatter" at primary school as some people on this thread seem to? This is the thing I find hard to understand. At my DS C of E primary school there are children from a wide variety of backgrounds and I have never heard anyone in RL say they have a problem with school assemblies etc.

dd1's school is a non religious school. But they do learn about religion.

They celebrate all the usual christian holidays and up to now they have also celebrated Divali and the chinese new year.

I like that she learns about different cultures and religions. I believe that helps teach her tolerance.

Those of you who are so against religion, do you celebrate Christmas?

I have no problem with the singing of hymns, actually: enjoyable music is enjoyable music - as long as the DC are learning other songs either from other myth systems or general folk/classic/traditional music.
It's a) saying prayers (ie being told to at least pretend you believe in some imaginary being that you are actually supposed to have a conversation with) and b) being told by people you are already conditioned to trust and obey that any of this mythological bullshit is true (BECAUSE it's not the choosing of one silly or even pretty set of stories over another that matters, it's the nasty stuff lurking in the background - if a teacher starts overstepping the mark then the teacher is usuually about to start peddling toxic crap, racism, bigotry, homophobia etc.)

Happywomble - I hope you don't mind if I address you directly, but I feel, as I often do on this topic, that people are answering what they think people are saying, not what they actually are.

I do not want to cut Christianity - or any other faith for that matter - out of my children's lives. I think it's very important that they learn about what people believe - apart from anything else, they may choose to follow one of those faiths themselves when they are older. I actually love choral music, I love celebrations - I love the fact that at my children's school they seem to celebrate every festival going including May Day. I realize that I have to accept that 51% of the "collective worship" should be broadly Christian in nature as it is a legal requirement - but the other 49% shouldn't be as well!

What I do not want is my children to be taught article of Christian faith as fact. "Some people believe that God created the world" is absolutely fine. "God created the world" is NOT fine. "Let's take a few moments to remember that we are lucky to have nice food to eat and be grateful to all the people who worked hard to bring it to us" is fine "Thank you, God, for the food we eat" is not fine. "Easter is when Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin" is not fine "Christians believe........" is fine.

You would not like you child to be asked to pray to a non-Christian God, would you? Soi why do I have to accept that my non-Christian child has to?