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Uniform debate - please help with your ideas and experience

183 replies

BonsoirAnna · 17/03/2009 10:33

There is currently a debate going on at my DD's school about the introduction of full uniform, as opposed to current dress/colour code.

Could you please help me draw up a document for the Parents Association by giving your views on the advantages and disadvantages of school uniform? Thank you

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UnrealisticExpectations · 18/03/2009 13:33

You say that most of the parents are against the uniform but you've not got your argument together yet - which is right, these things take a lot of thinking about etc, etc. Are the management aware of the level of opposition they're liable to encounter, or not yet?

What are their reasons for wanting one?

You say "And I suspect that the owner of DD's school is interested in the political clout that being that pilot-project would give him" Is it just the kudos you think he wants, or would it bring him something more?

BonsoirAnna · 18/03/2009 13:33

StewieGriffinsMom - that is VERY useful information about Florida - thank you and I will google it when I have some time.

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thedolly · 18/03/2009 13:38

Having reread your last few posts I think I get it - you do not want people to think that your daughter may be English and/or Jewish - is that right? Are you worried about negative reactions to this?

I am not being deliberately obtuse I am just trying to understand your towards the Head of the School and his one man crusade to formalise uniform arrangements .

BonsoirAnna · 18/03/2009 13:38

My hypothesis about the motivations of the Director end in my previous post (they are based on a newspaper article he was quoted in) and I am going to quiz another parent who knows him well about those motivations, as understanding them is absolutely critical to the response the Parents Association gives to the news about logo-ed uniform.

I think the management are aware of the levels of opposition they are likely to encounter, which is why they are trying to do things by stealth. There is a stereotypically French attitude at the very top of the management which takes little account of clients' parents' concerns...

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BonsoirAnna · 18/03/2009 13:40

thedolly - you are getting very confused... and I think it is perfectly clear. I do not want to walk around the streets of Paris advertising that I have chosen a particular school for my daughter (for whatever reason) because NO-ONE does that here and it draws attention to children (and parents) for no good reason. Why would we do this? Everyone will think we think we are better than they are... (not that this is true because it isn't).

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UnrealisticExpectations · 18/03/2009 13:47

I know it's good to have as many 'concrete' reasons against as you can - such as the Florida experiment. But aren't your concerns about its being culturally inappropriate just as valid?

thedolly · 18/03/2009 13:47

Why will they think that you are better than they are? I don't get it?

As someone suggested on another thread the ponceness of a schools uniform is inversely proportional to the academic reputation of the school OWTTE .

PinkBubblesGoApe · 18/03/2009 13:48

Jumping in rather late on the debate here, but I love school uniforms... easier for the mum and no competition among the kids. That said, I live in Brazil and here, although all schools private or state have uniform, its waaaay more relaxed than the UK uniforms. Usually kids (primary) wear some form of tracksuit (shorts in summer) and tshirt all with school logo. Our school also has an optional skirt. Trainers are mandatory in most schools - no "regular shoes". All this makes for a nice look which at the same time is comfy for little ones who are often sitting on the floor during activities, racing around the playground, etc. (kids are obviously outside a lot more here!)

thedolly · 18/03/2009 13:58

All that it would say to me is that your DD goes to the school with the uniform.

I think you are missing a treat here. You could be part of a pilot scheme that sees the introduction of a 'practical' school uniform based on international research (thanks to PinkBubblesGoApe and the like).

Blu · 18/03/2009 14:56

The context of a school introducing a uniform when no other school children in Paris wear them is important, I think.

The children will certainly get stared at (French mesdames are hardly tactful about a long hard pursed-lip stare, IME!) and feel self-conscious, and many people who havefelt self-conscious about school uniform have reported a feeling of resentfulness towards the school as a result.

Putting a child in a uniform in a country where uniforms are unheard of is akin to those boarding schools where the poor children have to wear capes and gaiters!

motherinferior · 18/03/2009 14:59

Yep, long ago when I was a girl the primary age kids in uniform were very definitely signalling 'I go to the posh school where you have to pay'.

motherinferior · 18/03/2009 15:01

Uniforms truly are vile, Anna, just stay clear!

BonsoirAnna · 18/03/2009 17:18

Oh, I think that the "culturally inappropriate" argument is THE killer argument, personally. However, since I suspect that the director of the school has a personal political agenda about being a pilot scheme for the re-introduction of uniforms in France, I would just like a bit more info about other countries where this has been tried, and has failed, as an example of why the pilot project would be a futile exercise anyway.

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BonsoirAnna · 18/03/2009 17:21

MI - I think uniforms are vile too and was delighted the day I took mine off forever, aged 12 .

But I do concede that for security reasons our school needs a colour code so that the children can easily be identified in the public park in which they play 3 or 4 times a day. Just as long as I (and DD, of course) can choose the styles and fabrics .

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thedolly · 18/03/2009 21:06

'The "culturally inappropriate" argument is THE killer argument'

Personally I think it's a non argument....we can't have school uniforms here in Paris where no other schools have them otherwise people will 'look' at us and our children with pursed lips...

Hence the idea of a pilot scheme for the re-introduction of uniforms rather than just a mass verdict.

Uniforms are not vile...'labels' are vile!

cory · 18/03/2009 22:50

I can see Anna's point of view: if we lived in Sweden I would strongly resist any attempt to introduce uniform into dcs school, because you would instantly singled out and uniforms there simply have totally different associations.

In the UK I quite like uniforms because they are economical and practical most of the time.

Otoh I hate the fact that they are not adapted to the typical British winter, which means children get to stay indoors at break the moment the temperature drops below -5 because they'd get hypothermia in those flimsy thin trousers.

teafortwo · 18/03/2009 23:06

I have been thinking about this thread on and off today and have three thoughts. They are called thought one, thought two and thought three....

Though one) Basically, the school has a 'loose uniform'.

If French schools decide to go down the uniform road (I am finding that hard to imagine working but I also found the smoking ban hard to imagine working - but it did!) wouldn't they start with a loose uniform for each school e.g colour codes? Like this school has. Then slowly, slowly catch the monkey introduce 'proper uniforms'?

In that case it is more of a benefit for the school to stay as it is and be used as a case study for loose uniforms first and then if the loose uniform is decided to be made a national policy, it is during this period only, the school should offer to pilot having a tighter uniform. If the rest of Paris is colour coded a 'proper uniform' wouldn't seem so alien!

Doing it now would be like seeing if a fish can live on a dry savannah! Pointless exercise!

Thought two) Being a bilingual school, in the centre of Paris with a big Jewish and Anglo intake it isn't really a 'typical French School'. It has a unique climate. What works or doesn't work may not be a reflection of the success (or not) of uniforms in schools in the whole of France. I can't see how it would be a good place to pilot such a scheme.

Thought three) If uniforms, like my friend reads them, are seen as elite or/and representative of a very strict mentality the school has to accept parents looking for these things will be attracted to the school and expect this from the school and those who do not like these thing will vote with their feet and look elsewhere.

I hope somewhere in there, there is something helpful???

Dottoressa · 18/03/2009 23:12

Advantages:

No arguments about what to wear.

No competition about labels/brands.

Easier for me, as I can get it all ready the night before!

They look smart. I don't like 'uniforms' that are basically home clothes with a school sweatshirt on top!

I know some object to white shirts, but I think they're fine - I buy in bulk from M&S so they can have a clean one every day.

My DC's uniform (bar the shirts and DS's shorts) is very expensive, but I think it probably evens out in the end - I save money on home clothes, as they spend most of their time in uniform!

I can't think of any disadvantages...

FairLadyRantALot · 18/03/2009 23:14

well...my dc all wear uniforms to no adverse affect

I grew up in Germany and therefore didn't , equally to no adverse affects...

against:
-personally I think wearing uniform hampers individuality
-I also find it makes it difficult to distinguish children on the playground
-I generally find the whole buying uniform a pain...never the right sizes, yadda....and difficult to replace items during the year, as shops don't seem to cater for this need unless it's beginning of a schoolyear

  • I believe that you will still recognize the poorer or uncared for children...so bullying will still be the issue
  • Kids find other things to bully about...my es was bullied for what he had in his lunchbox, of all things...
-it does not avoid peerpressure, imo, because they still meet outside school, and will soon make judgement anyhow

pro...
to me there isn't one,really,bar the argument about
-what they will wear can't build up

BonsoirAnna · 19/03/2009 09:05

cory - I completely agree with your POV. I don't have any issue with uniforms in the UK but am aware that they are difficult to adapt to the changing weather. That is why I like a "dress code" as it is easier to have a variety of different weights of clothing - some of which are also part of your out-of-school wardrobe.

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Belgianchocolates · 19/03/2009 11:19

I grew up in a non-school uniform wearing country. The few schools that do have a 'uniform' more have like what you called a dress colour: i.e. everyone wears trousers/skirt/dress + white shirt/polo t-shirt. No ties. What type of trouser, skirt of dress is up to you, thought there's usually a maximum and minimum length.

I remember very well from an exchange visit while I was a teenager myself how undisciplined I found the school I was visiting. I do not think a uniform makes a school more or less disciplined. Discipline and behaviour depends on the staff and how they cope with bad behaviour. Not on how the children are dressed.

I never ever remember having arguements about what to wear with my parents. It generally was a jeans and t-shirt/jumper afair in winter and maybe a summer dress in summer.

I don't remember clothes being all that much of a status symbol. Especially in primary school. In secondary school me and my friends used to laugh at those silly snobs who insisted on branded clothing .

My family thinks its a bit strange seeing my dcs (5&7) in tie and shirt, but they also think they look cute.

Our school here hasn't got a logo or anything, but it does have difficult colour (brown V-neck jumper, brown skirt/dress for girls), which makes it equally expensive as logoed tops and more of a hassle, because I can't buy these items from just anywhere. Also there are only 2 styles of brown dresses on the market and so it's even more important to have my dd's clothes name tagged.

I think the British are a nation of uniform lovers though. Almost anywhere you work you'll see people wearing a uniform. People behind the counter at chemists, banks, post office, a lot of companies have polo T-shirts with their logo for employees nowadays, etc... You don't see that where I'm from. People tend to wear their own choice regardless of where they work (except of course the police, nurses, postmen,...)

Belgianchocolates · 19/03/2009 11:25

bonsoiranna As I said in my above post: we didn't have a uniform where I grew up (Belgium). We did have a PE T-shirt and so we used to wear that if we went out and needed to be recognised as a group. I know from my brother that his dcs school has reflective jackets with the school name on, so when they go out of the school children can wear them over their coats and be easily identified. Maybe something like that might work in Paris.

BonsoirAnna · 19/03/2009 11:28

Belgianchocolates - all sorts of things are possible but what I really mind about is losing anonymity when around us no-one can tell which school a child attends from his/clothing. Logo-ed polo shirts or t-shirts are fine if they are the cultural norm. But to be the only school that does that?

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thedolly · 19/03/2009 12:16

Anna - why do you wish to remain anonymous? I don't buy 'the fact that everyone else is' as a reason. It doesn't fit with who you seem to be on MN. What is your real fear?

Find your real fear and therein you will possibly have the best reason yet for not introducing uniforms.

BonsoirAnna · 19/03/2009 12:17

thedolly - you are missing the point...

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