Uniform debate - please help with your ideas and experience

[BonsoirAnna]

There is currently a debate going on at my DD's school about the introduction of full uniform, as opposed to current dress/colour code.

Could you please help me draw up a document for the Parents Association by giving your views on the advantages and disadvantages of school uniform? Thank you

I'm pro-uniform. Or rather I'm perfectly happy DSs school has a uniform. I find the argument that uniform can limit a child's self-expression and individuality utterly hilarious though. My children's individuality and self expression lies in them not in the clothes they wear. You could dress them in a hessian sack in a crowd of children in hessian sacks and their individuality would shine from their eyes and from their voices and actions.

Self expression through clothing only applies if you have given your child the money and sent them shopping themselves, otherwise they are only wearing what you have bought them.

I have no problem with uniforms. They are practical, they seem comfortable and well suited to whatever they get up to at school. Ours consists of a mix-and-match selection of
grey/black trousers/shorts/skirt/pinafore,
white/yellow polo shirts,
white/yellow gingham dress,
yellow/grey/black logo sweatshirts (or plain cardigan/jumper)

DSs haven't complained that it's uncomfortable or hot or anything. They've never expressed any opinion about it at all. It makes a difference whether the uniform has always been there or if it's being introduced though. Children who have always worn it do not see a problem. They seem to be quite proud of it when they first put it in in Reception, especially if they have older siblings.

The key is that it has to be readily available, flexible and reasonably priced. Only 2 items of DSs aren't available on the high street - the logo sweatshirts and logo PE T shirt. Neither are expensive.

We had no uniform at primary school, but were 'encouraged' to wear school sweatshirts/T-shirts (mostly with jeans). My DS wears a uniform which is

• not cheap
• largely only available through the school
• durable (most items end up going through at least 3 or 4 DC, with a school-run second hand shop)
• natural fabrics
• washable and practical
• logos only on (white) summer polo shirts - winter jumpers are warm and cosy and, IMO, far more practical and smarter than sweatshirts

They could not get away with this if it were not an independent school.

I am, on balance, pro-uniform, as long as the right mechanisms are in place to cater for some degree of choice (e.g. cheap trousers vs. ethically sourced/natural fibres) and for 'recycling' (via a second hand shop of some sort) - it does make life easier and irons out any obvious differences between the 'richest' and 'poorest'.

At my DS's nursery they start wearing a uniform at 2. He's only 13 months & we're not sure where we'll be then but I'm a bit that it starts so young.
I had a funny old time with uniforms - at my primary the girls had to wear kilts (on the south coast of England!) and ties and at my secondary we were the year when grey pinstriped shirts were introduced for all. Of course they couldn't ask the current pupils to change all their shirts so for the first year we were the only year in the school not wearing white shirts!
I am pro-uniform though, but really not sure why....

In terms of ethics I think DD's uniform is ethical because it is so well made that they last 2/3 people. Our school runs a popular second hand shop once a month and DD has a pinafore, gym skort and cardigan from it currently. We'll be sending her outgrown stuff there for "recycling".

How many times do everyday clothes get recycled in a non-uniform school?

pretty much all of my kids' clothes are from either school friends, ebay or charity shops.

i jsut had a conversation with a friend and we realsied that our kids do very well out of a third friend witha very tall child in our year
we lucked out when we ended up with the green hoodie- my first mate is jealous of that one.

where is your uniform made, Butkin? And how is it sold initially?

Oops it says it is "Made in UK" on the label. Originally they are bought either from a particular shop in town or from the school who run a shop in the gym every so often (ie we bought DD's after-Easter PE top from there today). Many are bought 2nd hand from the school shop.

I'm not having a go at your ethical stance at all but it is possible to wear a uniform and still be reasonably virtuous.

oh, i know- that's why i asked where it was from.
I'm very interested in the whole sourcing thing.
If a uniform has to be worn - and i do asccept sometimes that things happend that i don't want- I'd like to feel that the governors have reseached it fully and asked all the right questions and then introduced a unifrom that is sound ethically and does offend religous beliefs etc and is affordable....

or maybe i live in cloud cuckoo land

oh bum, i wrote "does offend", not "doesn't" ! FFS!

Am pro-uniform - much easier to decide what to wear in the mornings. It gets put out, they put it on.

I can also remember being relieved when my junior school brought in uniform because I would fit it better and no longer stand out as the kid obviously wearing crap jumble sale clothes!

make that 'Fit in better'

Today the Inferiorettes wore:

DD1 - jeans, blue T-shirt with a bird on it, red cotton cardie, stripy socks, red shoes (amazingly, no hand me downs)

DD2 - pink cotton top with a bit of beading, cord skirt in multicoloured checks (her Elmer the Elephant skirt), pink leggings with white spots on, different pink socks, bright pink shoes (all hand me downs except socks and shoes).

As usual, they picked out their clothes last night and put them on this morning with no fussing (and no input from me at either stage). They looked much happier and to my mind much nicer than smothered in grey polyester.

The other point everyone always makes on this thread is 'look how competitive Own Clothes Days are'. But the whole point with a non-uniform school - certainly a primary - is that wearing your own clothes is not special. It's just what you do. AFAIK they hardly ever talk about clothes - I think one of DD1's mates is quite into nice clothes, but that's about all.

They just all look very chilled and relaxed and 'unsmart'.

"I find the argument that uniform can limit a child's self-expression and individuality utterly hilarious though. My children's individuality and self expression lies in them not in the clothes they wear. You could dress them in a hessian sack in a crowd of children in hessian sacks and their individuality would shine from their eyes and from their voices and actions."

As a happy-that-DS's-school-is-uniform-free person, I agree with that. But think that the flip side undermines the argument, placed elsewhere on this thread, that clothes affect discpline etc. You either have a disciplined school / class or you don't and no amount of matching polyester sweat shirts, or hannah montna outfits will change it!

In fact at secondary level, uniform seems to act as a catalyst for the most inventive subversive behaviour that can be found, with various treatments of ties, skirts, socks, etc!

LOTS of things spoken of on this thread apply to secondary, rather than primary.

Also - because children go mad on occasional 'home clothes' days doesn't mean that is what it would be like if they wore their own clothes all the time. It is precisely because they wear their own clothes all the time that they realise the importance of sensible clothing and get used to wearing practical home clothes, day in, day out. The mad novelty and fussiness wears off if they wear 'ordinary' home clothes to school every day.

I must admit that ds's school can look like a right rabble - but then they are children and I'm not sure why they should look anything else!

Personally i think that many lowest common denominator uniforms look horrible, and I am very pleased that I am not obliuged to dress my child in clothes that I find horrible! He can do that for himself when he is a teenager!

oh - cross-poste with MI!

well, even with uniforms you still have the problem of dress/skirt/trousers (grey or blue or black)

I don't want my dc to lok smart

If cheap second hand shirt looks the same as new expensive shirt if in the same colour
why is there a difference between cheap shirt of one colour and expensive shirt in another colour???

Yes, easy for the teachers if all children have grey trousers and white shirts

but impossible to find lost clothers, 1 amongst 100 others of the same colour

some children from a "no uniform " country came over to London to observe some schoolchildren. They initially thought uniforms were a good idea, till they realised "fashion parade" was still going on but with perhaps more subtle items, bags, shoes, style of shirt etc

I found the grey polyester trousers rather depressing. And the sensible black shoes. I mean, why inflicting black shoes on 4 yrs old?
However, I didn't mind the uniform, and ds was happy wearing it.

Ds's have attended 2 state schools both of which wear a uniform. The first was an awful cheap brown sweatshirt with a polo shirt. Most dc's looked a mess, no-one liked it and I would have preferred home clothes.
Now they go to a school with a very strong uniform code. blue jumpers with logo, blue shirts, blue and red ties. Both of the boys really like it, and are proud of how smart they look. The uniform washes well, is UK made, so I'm happy apart from the ironing
So I think it's all or nothing Anna.

blu- i agree re the secondary school thing.

And, it's jsut nice to put on whatever we want to in the morning.

And i don't have to make sure the uniform os cleana dry evry day-
I'm sure you end up buying more if you don't have/use a tumble drier...

Am definitely pro-uniform. Now - didn't used to be sure though.

My DD loves wearing her uniform. They are all unaware of class etc. (We're from the 'council estate' area, but many of the others are 'mansion' children.) It is safe - at nursery there are loads of parents who allow thier DC to go in inappropriate clothing despite knowing the 'rules'. I can't see how they would suddenly stop when thier DC go to school.

They still get to express thier individuality in coats, wellies, and indoor shoes (unless they choose school issue - which many do). But mainly in thier personality, thier friends and their work - which surely are the most important things!I'd rather they do this than have lots of mini-britneys etc. I'm glad she doesn't have the pressure to buy endless HSM tatt etc.

It seems to promote a positive attitude to clothing related to other cultures as those children who wear dthese clothes only wear them to school once or twice a year, and rather than feeling pressure to conform, the other children are always excited to see them and hear all about them.

She has a tie which she takes huge pride in being able to tie herself (and does identify her as being from a school where respect and standards appear to be valued). I NEVER iron her shirts - life is too short.

The problems are -
the school badge cardigans cost too much, and as all children wear a tie it doesn't seem necessary to have badged cardi's as well. There are too many shoes to buy every year (3-4 + weekend shoes). Uniformed indoor shoes and own choice (within reason) outdoors would be much more economical and practical. Children should have the option of summer uniform in September - it's too hot for shirts and ties. The compulsory school sunhats are useless, own choice widebrimmed etc would be much more effective.

But these are just issues that need tweaking - overall the uniform is great.

I am pro uniform. DD's school has a very strict uniform code and I like it.

From both a parent and a teacher point of view I see uniform as a good thing.

It does NOT impede individuality.

There are adults who do wear uniform or have dress codes for work - so uniform is part of RL for adults.

I now work at an infant school where parents have voted in a dress code with voluntary uniform. Almost all children wear the uniform by choice.

oh, and my three year old loves wearing her handed down nursery 'uniform' that looks just like mine, she just wishes I'd buy her more so she could wear one every day instead of all the beautiful outfits I chose for her. That says something doesn't it?