Uniform debate - please help with your ideas and experience

[BonsoirAnna]

There is currently a debate going on at my DD's school about the introduction of full uniform, as opposed to current dress/colour code.

Could you please help me draw up a document for the Parents Association by giving your views on the advantages and disadvantages of school uniform? Thank you

What an interesting thread, BonsoirAnna !!!

It might interest you to know that a bilingual friend of mine was proudly listing all of her reasons for cleverly not sending her ds to the school you speak of.

Her saved until last - so I suspect 'best' arguement was...

"And they are VERY, and I mean VERY strict. They make them wear a UNIFORM for goodness sake. I want to send my son somewhere friendly and nice, not like that!"

I was like this - and wondered is it just her that has this concept or for how many other Parisians does uniform = too strict and extremely unfriendly?

My point of view, from the little I know of the school, is it is a very friendly place (I did explain this to my friend). I feel with the 'uniform' the balance is right - the children can be identified in the park, very easily which is deeply important, yet on the walk home don't look like aliens in Paris which is important.

LOL tea4two. If there is one thing that the school cannot be accused of (in the French context), it is of being overly strict...

Oooh! I think I've maybe made this uniform hostility sound worse than I meant it to.

All I meant to say was that I'd made my pro-uniform points before your point about "children wearing the logo-ed uniform of a private international school in the streets of Paris would be provocative and dangerous" came up, so I hadn't taken that into my equation.

There are definite 'better off/poorer' resentments round here between schools but it's only low-level and it only ever has been.

What's the situation with uniforms in French schools generally? (Sorry if you've said this - I've re-read and I can't see anything specific but I'm notorious for missing things) I think it's always good to be sympathetic to the local way of doing things wherever you are - locally, nationally or internationally!

Basically no French schools have uniform. A few schools (totally outside the French NC) do have uniforms, and extortionate fees too. This is not the case at DD's school, which is sous contrat ie follows the French NC.

However, there is nothing illegal about uniforms and both the current and previous Ministers for Education have expressed interest in the idea of re-introducing them and would be supportive of a school that ran a pilot for them...

And I suspect that the owner of DD's school is interested in the political clout that being that pilot-project would give him.

I like a uniform. No fussing about outfits in the morning, the children at DD's school very proud of their uniforms and it is an outward show of their pride in their school. I wore one and what I loved as I grew older was the creativity of finding ways to subvert the 'proper' wearing of it. ou could tell a lot about a girl from her special modifications. Gives you a good start to breaking rules in a harmless way.

very pro uniform because of all the reasons already listed ...instills school loyalty ( not sure if right word) maybe solidarity etc etc, didn't a recent reseach paper show that state schools predominantly in london's poorer boroughs which had re introduced a smart uniform actually produced better eresults ?? i rememebr reading an article in telegraph about a girls high school in tooting ( i htink) which ahd reintroduced uniform and the girls designed it - gorgeous black blazers with bright pink cord piping , black and pink striped ties etc, really cool but smart. they had turned the school around - but maybe it was a new head who had the determination to bring in tough uniform rules also had the drive to raise standards ?
Having said all that i do remember a lovely MN quote from a thread way back when someone said " no prep school is ever knowingly under-uniformed" this came to mind as i wade through the uniform list for dd2 starting recep in sept - it runs to 3 pages ffs

mummydoc - am loving the concept of pupils designing own uniform in an English context. And love your quote.

But the more I think about it, the less I want my DD to walk around branded in the streets of Paris where no other school brands its pupils.

wish i was clever enough to find article the uniform was fab and my dds went crazy over it - i did have to point out that hteir own school is mixed and the boys would not appreciate a pink uniform. I am gutted by your description of french schools - i always imagined french schools to be rows of un utterably cute "matilda" like characters in grey pinafores and hats marching thru paris ??? this must be a disneyism?

Is your knowledge of French schooling entirely dependent on Madeline?

I remember watching a fabulous YouTube video of some seminar talking about globalisation and how most continental young people's views of the ROW had been informed by Tintin...

umm yes it is and couldn't even remeber the right name .....

My dd would love to go to a school like Madeleine's .

I do wonder about the teacher-child ratio though .

The little one's at DD's school do wear navy blue smocks with white Peter Pan collars when they go to the park. And they march in crocodiles . More than one Anglo-Saxon mother has fallen in love with the vision...

Took 60 year 1 children to the park Monday morning. ItThere were other children there too - some preschoolers but also some older children, a nursery there, and also a small number of children from another scvhool. It was nigh on impossible to know exactly which child belonged to us when they didn't have a uniform on. Fortunately, as said before, most of our parents do chose to send children in the voluntary uniform - but not all. And keeping tabs on those non uniformed children is much more difficult.

I think you can't beat a good, smart uniform in the UK but the more I'm reading about your situation, the more I'm agreeing with you that it might not be right for you.

Your arrangements for the park sound very practical (and outrageously cute ). Your dress code sounds like it fulfils a lot of the advantages a uniform brings anyway.

With my limited knowledge of your situation, I think I might be feeling uncomfortable about a full-on uniform too. I've never lived abroad so I could be talking rubbish but (again, without having been in that situation) I would think I?d be feeling like I wanted to be seen to be making efforts to assimilate myself into the local way of life. Are you concerned that it'd be one thing for a French school to adopt a strict uniform code against convention, whereas it's another thing for an International school to do so?

Could some compromise be reached whereby you tighten up the dress code but don't go as far as a full-on blazer/tie uniform? How would you feel about that? The badged sweaters can look quite cute in a preppy kind of way.

The dress code is pretty tight already IMO so I don't think that further tightening is an option. The proposal is for logo-ed jumpers/cardigans in the first instance, but we are getting word of an official supplier of school clothing...

Interesting thread, more than just a boring old school uniform debate .

BonsoirAnna lots of examples of hostility provoked by uniform in Northern Ireland as most schools are segregated on the basis of religion and all wear a uniform.

What would a uniform as proposed by your DD's school 'say' to people on the streets of Paris?

thedolly - I think it would be interpreted as "My child goes to an élite school and I want to show off that fact."

And I just don't want to walk around the streets of Paris advertising that. The reason I, and many, many parents chose that school is because it is (a) bilingual (so suitable for international children) (b) secular (most private/alternative schools are religious). There is a BIG Anglo contingent and a BIG Jewish contingent for those reasons. Because we want English and secular education and we are prepared to pay for that doesn't mean we want our children to be socially marked out from other children in any other way.

Grrrrrrrrrrrr.

Yeah, I'd totally agree with you on that. I'd hate it. What's the consensus amongst the other parents?

Like I said in earlier post, there was a revolution a few years ago when the school suddenly tried to introduce a red logo-ed blazer - the parents just REFUSED and the whole thing collapsed (this is before my time).

Mostly I think the parents are against but I am not sure that we have yet managed to produce a coherent, well-reasoned argument as to why. Our Parents Association is not always brilliant at getting to the nitty-gritty of the feelings of the parent body and communicating that feeling in a short, reasoned format to the management...

At DC's school only sportswear has a school logo which makes sense to me. The rest of the uniform is fairly innocuous and recognised mainly by people with connections to the school. If the perception is that your school already has a 'uniform' then perhaps there is no real problem with formalising it. It will make it easier to shop for and second hand sales will bring in some extra funds for the PTA .

Why will it not just say 'my kid goes to the bilingual school in Paris that wears a uniform'?

What part of uniform say 'elite'? If the school is as you say 'elite', since you chose it, why do you have a problem with others knowing that?

Another thought - since the school is English/French and most schools in England wear a uniform, can't the school just be seen to be embracing a facet of the English educational system?

It says "élite" because NO OTHER SCHOOL wears a uniform and distinguishes itself in this way ie signals its difference.

It would say just "bilingual school" if it were one uniform among many.

the dolly - the school is definitely not "English" in the cultural sense - it is a bilingual school ie teaches the English language.