Uniform debate - please help with your ideas and experience

[BonsoirAnna]

There is currently a debate going on at my DD's school about the introduction of full uniform, as opposed to current dress/colour code.

Could you please help me draw up a document for the Parents Association by giving your views on the advantages and disadvantages of school uniform? Thank you

There must be a few children on here pretty lacking in character and personality if they need clothes to show their individualty.

I would have thought a uniform actually allows a personality to shine through because nobody is worried about their clothes.

Haven't read all the threads, so apologies if i'm repeating anything

DS's school has a uniform, shirt, tie, the whole works. He hates his uniform because it's uncomfortable, but i feel that at some point he's going to have to learn to fit in with others and the earlier he gets that over with the better. Not very guardian-reading I know, and not what i expected to be saying when I became a parent, but DS has aspergers so fitting in with others to any degree is a challenge we need to meet, as is the issue of uncomfortable clothes. And no matter what you feel, boys and men will need to wear a tie at some point, even if only to show respect at a wedding or a funeral

On the plus side, DS's co-ordination skills are pretty poor but now half-way through his third year he can do up and undo all the buttons on his shirt himself, that wouldn't have happened otherwise. I'm going for doing up the tie next - shoot for the stars, why not

His school specifies white shirts which I dutifully did in P1, then noticed most of the boys with older brothers there had grey, so have gone for them ever since. White and small boys and sand pits and painting just do not mix. Only problem, seemed to be almost impossible to buy grey ones this summer. Oh, and of course the ironing, but I've found tumble drying takes most of the creases out so I do one superfast in the morning before school (and you can usually get 2 days out of a dark grey shirt) as well as a tie (AS, chewing clothes, have to wash out the spit and then iron out the teeth marks, lovely )

The school sells ties, logo'd jumpers, logo'd polo shirts for summer, fleecy jackets, etc, but heavily subsidised so not so much of an issue for people with less money. And all they really need is a tie, jumper and couple of polo shirts, unless you have a chewer, like me. The rest they don't strictly enforce, though I personally prefer 'proper' school shoes rather than trainers while they're small and their feet are still growing. And they do look quite smart when you see them all together in uniform, even though they manage to get their own individuality in anyway

Sorry it's so long, trying to fit everything in before DD wakes up screaming for her morning feed

Your daughters sound like they have superb dress senses, MI.

My kids have a uniform and it is very meh. Uniforms are very boring. They are often unflattering too, esp for developing teenage girls. I really would have cried if I'd had to wear a shirt and tie at secondary. T'was bad enough getting used to becoming curvy at 11 without having to worry about breasts straining at shirt buttons and the like.

ingles2 - I was interested in your all-or-nothing comment and tend to agree.

The problem with a smart, English-style uniform is that children dressed like that would stick out like a sore thumb in Paris. And since the vast majority of children at DD's school walk or take public transport to and from school and play in a public park after school, there is a lot of exposure and sticking out like a sore thumb during the day if the school goes down the smart uniform route.

I taught at a school with uniform and actually didn't find it a massive advantage from a teacher's POV. I spent a lot of timing fussing with details of uniform when I could have been having genuine and meaningful conversations.
I do agree though that it makes the financial differences between children a lot more obvious. In a school where there is a children from a variety of backgrounds there would be a real issue with children coming in their own clothes.
My son currently goes to a non-school uniform school. Everyone is dressed appropriately and the playground looks colourful and vibrant but his school is dominated by people from fairly comfortable backgrounds.
You can say that uniform restricts individuality but if you only have a couple of outfits and non-uniform day is an embarrassing nightmare then some children are only too happy to give up that individuality. Some children I taught literally did and were happy to 'forget' it was non-uniform day and still turn up in uniform.
I would recommend going with a sweatshirt, avoiding compulsory white shirt, having a clear system where people on lower incomes can buy sweatshirts more cheaply or second hand as well as using the voucher system.

I think so Anna. If there's token uniform then people make a token attempt at wearing it IME. It seems to me there is a correlation between a strong disciplined school, and a strong pride in the uniform. It could be a good thing for your school if it's not particularly common. It might foster a good sense of community, identity and pride. Besides... how cute would they look in a traditional uniform playing in a park in Paris?

The little ones wear a traditional French smock when playing out in the park under the supervision of their teacher/dinner lady and it does look sweet.

But (and this is a very big but) as you surely are aware, there are very big cultural taboos around wearing any signs of religious affiliation at school in France and I am beginning to think that children wearing the logo-ed uniform of a private international school in the streets of Paris would be provocative and dangerous.

The little ones wear a traditional French smock when playing out in the park under the supervision of their teacher/dinner lady and it does look sweet.

But (and this is a very big but) as you surely are aware, there are very big cultural taboos around wearing any signs of religious affiliation at school in France and I am beginning to think that children wearing the logo-ed uniform of a private international school in the streets of Paris would be provocative and dangerous.

mmmm. Would the uniform necessarily have to be logo-ed then? Is the school multi-cultural as well as international?

ingles - the concept of "multi-cultural" does not exist in France .

Currently we have dress/colour code at school (white shirt, navy jumper, navy or grey trousers/bermudas/dress/skirt, navy overcoat). The proposal is logo-ed sweater/cardigan... but we have got wind of all sorts of other ideas in the pipeline...

Three years ago the school introduced bright red logo-ed blazers overnight. There was a parental revolution and the plan was dropped. But we know that the owner of the school is plotting a uniform and I suspect it's a personal political thing on his behalf. Grrrrrrr.

not even in the private sector? blimey!
urrggghh. I think your uniform is sufficient then. Particularly if you feel a logo might have political undertones.

The context is totally different: in the private sector there are mainly religious schools (mostly Catholic, though there are Jewish schools that I know of) and a few bilingual/international schools that are, like all state schools, secular. You leave your religion and culture at the door of the school in France - no Christmas trees or Hallowe'en parties here .

When I teach recorder I find the fact that they all have school logos on the left side very useful.

I'm not sure this is a good enough reason - but it's certainly a different one.

I'm very pro uniform. I agree with all the pro points made by islandofsodor and lucyec.

It's good for the kids because it gives them a leveller playing field - even if you discount the very valid point that WilyWombat makes 'It makes the financial differences between the children?s backgrounds less obvious', which might not be as relevant in more affluent areas, it's also a great leveller in terms of style, shape, size etc. I was just looking at last year's 'Child of Our Time' stuff on the BBC website last night and, in their quiz, apparently (like it or not!) the best thing you can do to make your kids popular at school is to 'help them to be well-presented and make the most of their looks '
www.bbc.co.uk/apps/ifl/parenting/quizengine/coot1_quiz/quizengine?quiz=coot1_quiz&TemplateStyle=coot 1_quiz&platform=pc-internet

I think a uniform not only takes the kids' minds off the distractions of who's wearing what, but also makes it easier for kids who just aren't going to get the trendiest clothes, look the best in them, etc, regardless of income.

Our school sells badged cardigans and sweaters. These are great because they're smart individually and smart for a group - all exactly the same colour, detail etc. Otherwise you just buy your own uniform skirts, pinafores, trousers etc. I like that because I can buy cheap 100% cotton shirts and pinafores from Tesco and have a clean one for every day. It's still cheaper than buying more non-uniform clothes.

I've got to say though, I would HATE to have to buy a specific skirt/trousers/pinafore that was teflon coated polyester or whatever.

Short sleeved shirts are great, especially for the littler ones. No paint and grub on cuffs. No need to get them to roll their sleeves up.

I think there are loads of ways kids can express their individuality without relying on clothes. Personally, I think it encourages individuality because kids have to rely on their personality rather than what they?ve got, in order to express themselves.

But maybe your dress code already addresses all of these issues?

Sorry, got interrupted so missed the later stuff.

"But (and this is a very big but) as you surely are aware, there are very big cultural taboos around wearing any signs of religious affiliation at school in France and I am beginning to think that children wearing the logo-ed uniform of a private international school in the streets of Paris would be provocative and dangerous."

That's the only negative side to uniforms, in my opinion. It's something that goes on everywhere but, in your situation, it's a very big negative.

In most schools I think the advantages outweight the disadvantages but maybe your existing dress code is better for your school?

To what extent do uniforms provoke hostility in the UK? Does anyone have any examples?

I had strict uniform all through school; it was boring but OK - dreaded non-uniform days though because of course then the excitement about who wore what was incredible!
DH went to a non-uniform school, and was bullied mercilessly for years for not wearing the 'right' clothes.

My charges do not wear uniform to school and I hate it. There is so much competition over name brand clothes (especially ugg boots), a lot of the kids can look really scruffy. There is also no dress code in regards to hair, piercings etc which is worse I think. Admittedly I wore uniform when I was at school (I had a summer, winter, formal, sport, house and then extra sport uniform). I do wish that they had a unifrom.

As for hostility, I have never seen or heard anything in regards to this and I have worked in schools for the past few years.

What I don't understand is that lack of pride some students have in their uniform and general appearence. Is it not enforced to be neat and tidy???

Maybe not countrywide. We live in the North in a socially mixed area and there has always been 'aggro' between (mainly) boys from 'opposing' local schools. But that would happen whether there was a uniform or not: rich/poor, catholic/protestant, etc, etc, etc. That sort of thing causes resentments worldwide and forever, sadly, doesn't it? As you say, a uniform just makes you instantly identifiable.

We have a strict uniform code and I like it. DS has to wear a tie also and I think it is good preparation for "big school". Having seen what some of the children wear on non uniform days, (some of the girls wearing heels FGS) I'm glad we have a uniform. There is no distinction between rich and poor. They all look lovely and are very proud of their smart school.

But, round here, I'd still favour uniforms because, as I've said, I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages - for us.

I take your point that your situation is very different and, even as a pro-uniformer, I think your reservations are very valid.

I'm in the South Anna. I don't think I've ever come across any hostility from uniforms, not even when I was at school. I went to the local grammar that had a full on uniform, hats, blazers, the lot. the kids from the local comp called us the posh, clever lot, but that was about it. And it certainly didn't stop me from getting boyfriends at the youth club disco
We live in a rural area and there is no hostility at all for uniform as every school in the area has one. My boys think the dc's from the last school look scruffy, but I think that's understandable as I moved them.

Anyone in London have any examples of hostility provoked by uniform?

Lots and lots of thanks to everyone by the way - this thread is very interesting and helping me greatly to refine my thoughts.

Like castille, I have had experience of trying no uniform and the competition between children increases with regards to who has the latest 'designer' gear.

I have 3 children who have gone through the primary and secondary system and have not been damaged by wearing uniform - boys who don't really care about having to wear black trousers, plooshirt and sweatshirt with school logo on.

My 15 year old daughter manages to personalise her uniform. She likes to wear a shirt and tie, but the shirt is unbuttoned a bit and her tie is just visible above her black jumper. No poloshirts or sweatshirts for her. There is a choice of shirt and tie if the child wants. The seniors like a shirt and tie because they get to choose a different colour tie to denote their seniority.

Another plus for school colours is that unauthorised people in the playground are more easily spotted (unless of course they adopt school colours which they don't tend to do) - usually teenagers looking for a fight - sad but true.

With 4 children having gone through school, and 3 having now left, I am a supported of school uniform whch can be totally comfortable and economical.

Children can individually express themselves despite what they wear IMO.

I prefer it that my dd's wear uniform, however I am glad that the uniform they were is practical easy for young children to put on. They do not wear shirts and ties, instead they wear polo shirts and sweatshirts. The infants have to wear white polo shirts and the juniors can wear white or purple, the purple are much better so if you have the choice I'd vote for a darker colour.