Page 6 | Independent schools while on UC

Luluace · 2024-03-28T23:56:55+00:00

Hi all, I have have two boys (7 and 3) whom I would like to try for independent school. Youngest will be starting reception in Sept and he is a bright spark. Oldest also. There are a couple of schools I have looked into ( Dulwich prep/college and St Paul’s). I have seen that these schools offer scholarships/bursaries. Recently been made homeless due to DV and have had to sign up for UC for the first time in my life, and so have missed and entrance exam assessments to schools. Has anyone had any chance of being offered a place after assessments and places offered? How straightforward with the school offering scholarship/bursary? Specifically asking to those on UC or other benefits? How did you liaise with the school to inform them and how did they respond? To those whose kids made enters to these schools, how was the process, especially if you are either on low income or on benefits? What prep and for how long? I am not familiar with the system and just need to understand and both my kids will benefit from the challenge of private. State school my first was in never challenged him and they wanted every child to be on the same level which is impossible. A small class size is another thing of interest. please advise/suggest.

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

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PropertyManager · 31/03/2024 15:09

3WildOnes · 31/03/2024 12:58

@twistyizzy That's not quite true. Private schools can choose to inspected by Ofsted as well as the ISI. Most private schools choose not to be as it is easier to get a better rating with ISI than with Ofsted.

If the school offers boarding, then the boarding functions have to by law be inspected directly by Ofsted, that of course includes safeguarding / admin etc.

The rest is separate, most choosing not to have Ofsted but ISI, because frankly (having been inspected by both) ISI is a far superior operation, less stressful and realistic.

elij · 31/03/2024 15:22

RosesAndHellebores · 30/03/2024 09:46

The best start you can give your DC is making sure they have a lived example of an outstanding work ethic to follow. That won't happen if you are on Universal Credit.

If you want your DC educated at St Paul's or Dulwich College, get a full-time job and work hard like the parents who actually pay the fees. If with a full time job and hard work you can't stretch to the fees, your boys may deserve a bursary.

Caveating of course with the fact that there is nothing wrong with benefits if people are too unwell to work.

Ah yes all those trustafarians sitting in Colbert until their kids have finished for the day (parents we call friends).

If you want to see people working 35+ hours a week it's not those schools.

NoisySnail · 31/03/2024 15:24

OFSTED inspect boarding for safeguarding and welfare issues only though. And they do so because of some previous safeguarding scandals.

RosesAndHellebores · 31/03/2024 16:12

@elij not my experience having taken two children through those schools.

SoupChicken · 31/03/2024 16:34

I say this kindly, I have a colleague who was convinced his 3 year old was a genius, he had an analytical mind and was clearly destined for great things etc… now he’s six it’s clear he’s got additional needs and all the ‘signs’ that pointed to him being extra super clever were actually not and he spends a lot of time outside of the classroom because he’s so disruptive and can’t regulate his emotions.

I would suggest you don’t do so much at home if it’s putting your child in the position of being bored at school and ahead of his classmates, focus on other activities instead because there are a lot of bright kids out there and they can’t all get bursaries so it’s more likely they’re going to spend their school years at state school, and some are very good.

opalsandcoffee · 31/03/2024 16:37

Blushingm · 31/03/2024 09:33

I found math easy at school - state school - I did my maths GCSE 2 years early. States schools usually have a gifted & talented programme too to nurture kids who are academic/advanced. I know my school did and the school my DC went to did

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The trouble with this is it is so easy to do maths (or any) GCSE on its own 2 years before the others that it is often not counted in the GCSE total, which is the number of GCSEs taken together, or within a year of each other

Original poster

Luluace · 31/03/2024 17:12

opalsandcoffee · 31/03/2024 07:19

I think you misunderstand what sort of "work" children benefit from at home. NOT "supplementary" school work. What is the point? School work is for school. The role of the parent is to enrich their child's education by conversations, experiences and interests OUTSIDE of the curriculum. Or to reinforce the curriculum content by practical applications BEHIND the place they currently are at school.

Why would you be working with your child on academic work beyond what he is covering at school? Where is the pleasure or the value in that? There is none.

Children benefit from shopping, talking, political engagement, travel, camping, gardening, cooking, visiting museums, galleries, exhibitions, voluntary work, hobbies, languages, music, conservation, sport, hiking, trips and trip planning, sewing, craft, community service, films, photography, family life with relatives of all ages, etc etc etc

What they don't benefit from is doing more school work at home with parents, beyond where they are at school. By all means work on weaknesses and support with problem areas, a little bit, in a non threatening way.

But you keep saying your son is 2-3 years ahead - not unusual in state schools, and now you are saying you have taught him at home, so that 2-3 years ( which you have assessed in a home setting, where he will inevitably perform better) is not down to natural ability, but to cramming, so I take back what I said earlier about him possibly being in the top 10%. He might be, but there is no evidence of that. Maybe top third? Might not be grammar school material.

Nothing you have said makes it likely that your child would qualify for any sort of funding for a private school.

I know you want the best for your child, but I am still advising that supporting him through state school with a varied and interesting programme of family activities and hobbies outside of school, plus academic support in weak, behind areas, is the way to provide it.

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Thanks for your comment. Please note our definitions of supplementary work may be different. English down the line of many languages I speak so many things I say may very well be misunderstood, naturally.

It is interesting you assume that just because some supplementary work happens at home, it stops there and kids don’t get to participate in anything. Sorry your view has been diluted in this way. If you have read other responses from myself you would have seen that I did mention that formal assessment has been conducted. But to assume that parents are also incapable of conducting any assessment of their own in this day and age is unfortunate on your part.
Both kids are getting plenty of support and getting plenty of family time. Being on UC does not remove any of that.

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Blushingm · 31/03/2024 17:20

@opalsandcoffee my early GCSE was always counted - it doesn't matter when it was taken - same as people who resist in 6th form, their GCSEs are still counted in the total. I used mine to go to university

Original poster

Luluace · 31/03/2024 17:40

SoupChicken · 31/03/2024 16:34

I say this kindly, I have a colleague who was convinced his 3 year old was a genius, he had an analytical mind and was clearly destined for great things etc… now he’s six it’s clear he’s got additional needs and all the ‘signs’ that pointed to him being extra super clever were actually not and he spends a lot of time outside of the classroom because he’s so disruptive and can’t regulate his emotions.

I would suggest you don’t do so much at home if it’s putting your child in the position of being bored at school and ahead of his classmates, focus on other activities instead because there are a lot of bright kids out there and they can’t all get bursaries so it’s more likely they’re going to spend their school years at state school, and some are very good.

I don’t do much, but what we do we do with consistency. I completely understand with what you’re saying, however someone could view it differently. I love and have a passion for child development, especially children with some neurological challenge. Such kids are often viewed as is not a positive light for not conforming to society standards is heartbreaking just because a child is not sit on the chair for x amount of time. It’s also interesting the general expectation for kids to comply and behave a certain way in school to fit with the rest. Hope your friend’s child receives any support that will of benefit to him so he can be the genius he is.

OP posts:

Original poster

Luluace · 31/03/2024 17:43

opalsandcoffee · 31/03/2024 16:37

The trouble with this is it is so easy to do maths (or any) GCSE on its own 2 years before the others that it is often not counted in the GCSE total, which is the number of GCSEs taken together, or within a year of each other

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No program like that exists where my kid is. The general message is that they want them to be on the same page, which is impossible and very unrealistic. I can only speak for the school he is in and not for any other which may function differently.

OP posts:

opalsandcoffee · 31/03/2024 19:10

Luluace · 31/03/2024 17:43

No program like that exists where my kid is. The general message is that they want them to be on the same page, which is impossible and very unrealistic. I can only speak for the school he is in and not for any other which may function differently.

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That is what I am saying, GCSEs should all be taken together. If you take them early and individually, it is much easier, so colleges and universities don't accept the results as worth the same as GCSEs taken together.

It is very easy indeed to get 10 high grade GCSEs if you take 1 every 6 months from year 7 onwards ( although these days exam boards don't allow the 6 month increments) It is much harder to get 10 top grades altogether in one sitting. So GCSEs done like this count for a lot more with future colleges and universities. So if you take maths two years early, in year 9, and then take 7 more GCSEs together in year 11, you will only count as having 7 GCSEs, so a sixth form that wants you to have 8 as an entry requirement, won't take you, and not only that, but a maths programme wont either, although for any other purposes, you are likely to still count as having maths GCSE

PinkFrogss · 31/03/2024 19:17

Luluace · 31/03/2024 17:12

Thanks for your comment. Please note our definitions of supplementary work may be different. English down the line of many languages I speak so many things I say may very well be misunderstood, naturally.

It is interesting you assume that just because some supplementary work happens at home, it stops there and kids don’t get to participate in anything. Sorry your view has been diluted in this way. If you have read other responses from myself you would have seen that I did mention that formal assessment has been conducted. But to assume that parents are also incapable of conducting any assessment of their own in this day and age is unfortunate on your part.
Both kids are getting plenty of support and getting plenty of family time. Being on UC does not remove any of that.

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Who conducted the formal assessment, and why was it done?

Original poster

Luluace · 31/03/2024 19:33

SheilaFentiman · 31/03/2024 08:17

OP

I am going to believe that your boys are as bright as you say. Great! My two are also at a competitive private school (not London) and one has a small scholarship, meaning he had one of the top ten scores on exam and interview.

Let’s call the school you want X. X (and every other school) has hundreds of boys each year who are bright enough to get in. It cannot offer a place to all of them. Even the waiting list is selective - if a space comes up because a boy moves, the first boy asked will likely be the next best performer in the exams (his parents may say no if he is settled elsewhere at that point, and then the school will work down the list)

Of those hundreds of boys, let’s say 30 are among the highest scorers but do not have the means to pay full fees. The school has set aside funds for perhaps 10 full bursaries. There is then a complicated juggling act by the bursar, assessing the financial situation of the 30, deciding if any could pay eg 50% fees or 75% fees or 30% fees, meaning the bursaries can go further. Is it better to have 20 able boys on 50% bursaries or 10 on 100%, when that means 10 other boys aren’t able to go.

All these calculations will be done within 1-2 months of the main entrance process, so that parents can make decisions. Perhaps a boy with a 50% bursary offer will take a 100% offer elsewhere and the bursar can move down the list, or bump others up to 60%

This sort of process is why it is very unlikely, even if your boys are Einstein and Newton in waiting, for you to get a 100% bursary at a non-standard entry point. Bear in mind that the bursar may also need to retain some funds for parents who have a large change in circumstances part way through the educational process.

Hence posters saying “focus on 11+ or possibly 7+”

Thanks. Yes, the 11+ is on the to do. This was more of seeing different suggestions based on people’s different experiences with the process outside the 11+.
They have enough time for the 11+ (or possibly the 7+ for my youngest).

OP posts:

Londonforestmum · 31/03/2024 19:40

People getting confused with 'receiving UC' and 'not working'. Most people recieving UC are working.

Original poster

Luluace · 31/03/2024 19:44

DancefloorAcrobatics · 31/03/2024 10:33

I think if you truly know about child development, then you would also know that at primary school level children are able to be way ahead of others simply by having parents who are doing extra work at home.

It will all even out at secondary school and even more at A level.
Your DC will sit the same exam as the kids at the state school next door.
Having been through it all, that's my line of judgement about DC'S abilities.

I live in a deprived area and in an even more deprived town, no fancy independent schools in a 40 mile.radius.
So for my school choices, I had to stick to the local offerings. Which I don't regret, as DD has learned a lot from her peers and is definitely able to move around and understand all levels of society. She also got to experience different cultures right on her doorstep.

Education isn't just about academic achievements its also about social skills and nurturing interests outside of school.
Cultural Capital, a strong family bond and being open to new experiences is a huge part of a child's future. That's where my focus is.

I don't envy you, I just feel sorry for your DC being already coached to sit exams at a time of great upheaval.
I admit it's hard to nuture and grow these tiny human beings into big independent adults. That's no right or wrong, only time will tell if the paths you choose are the correct ones.

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Thanks. I cannot speak for the future, although there is always that faith that our kids will do ok regardless.
There is no “coaching “ as you put it. Learning is usually in a fun way and the perception that it’s forcing may be true for others, but I don’t as it’s not worth my time and there’s. They certainly enjoy learning which has made it easy and it extends in various ways which they get a lot of.

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mvd78 · 02/04/2024 09:24

Definitely look into Christ's Hospital for 11+ stage - they offer 100% bursaries for those who really need it, plus free uniform and all the extras. It's an amazing school - made all the better for the lovely mix of kids from all different backgrounds, as most are there on some kind of bursary (although there are full fee payers too).

Ninabean89 · 02/04/2024 14:15

I’m a single mum of 2, working and also receive UC. My eldest is in reception at a state school but a place at my local prep school came available and I enquired as she’s a bright little thing and they had her in for assessment days and really want her so have offered a 50% scholarship and also bursaries as well which I’ve just completed so just waiting but looking positive.
ignore the negative comments, everyone’s situations differ and no one should judge. Your child is bright naturally and that’s what private schools also want! That’s the whole purpose of bursaries is to help the child with so much potential.

Pinkdelight3 · 02/04/2024 14:24

Ninabean89 · 02/04/2024 14:15

I’m a single mum of 2, working and also receive UC. My eldest is in reception at a state school but a place at my local prep school came available and I enquired as she’s a bright little thing and they had her in for assessment days and really want her so have offered a 50% scholarship and also bursaries as well which I’ve just completed so just waiting but looking positive.
ignore the negative comments, everyone’s situations differ and no one should judge. Your child is bright naturally and that’s what private schools also want! That’s the whole purpose of bursaries is to help the child with so much potential.

What's your thinking about your second DC? Would you be happy for one to go to the prep while the other goes through state primary?

Ninabean89 · 02/04/2024 14:51

All depends, my other daughter is young but if she turns out to be as bright as my eldest then I will look into it at the time.

Gruach · 02/04/2024 14:55

Actually, @Pinkdelight3, if a parent is smart, any advantages conferred on Child 1 through attending an independent school can be carried over to Child 2. Academic goals - school textbooks and literature can be shared, as with online and other resources. Broader horizons in terms of extra curricular activities, trips, whatever, should provide ideas for the whole family. Etc, etc.

You wouldn’t deprive one child of junior conservatoire tuition or becoming a chorister or taking part in a sport at national level because the other wasn’t similarly gifted? And those things would be much harder to share.

Original poster

Luluace · 02/04/2024 15:59

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I am glad you pushed through and it turned to a positive experience for you. Goes to show that you should never go by only just the general process, it can be at the school’s discretion whatever time of year. This is what I was truly enquiring about and your positive experience gives me hope.

I am sure you will figure things with both kids eventually, as I’m sure you have considered logistics to suite you and how you will navigate both your kids in the meantime.

Amazing!

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WarningOfGails · 02/04/2024 16:48

Come back and update @Ninabean89 when you get the full offer from the school!

MusicMum80s · 02/04/2024 20:25

I love in Dulwich. Dulwich Prep usually has vacancies and do offer bursaries so its worth getting in touch. Rosemead in west Dulwich use to offer bursaries as well but I don't know if that's still the case. Also worth ringing them if you are considering the Dulwich schools. I'm not aware of any others that do but if your kids are bright, its definitely worth a shot. I can't advise on what its like for bursary kids there but I have friends with kids at both schools and the parents and children seem lovely (not snobby) so hopefully it would be a positive experience.

MusicMum80s · 02/04/2024 20:34

TeenLifeMum · 30/03/2024 12:58

haha okay, I’d say it’s not outright bullying but exclusion. 2 separate very well regarded schools. To be fair it was in the secondary stage but when dc are talking about holidays, helicopter travel etc there’s is a divide. My friend (teacher) invited her daughter’s friends over and once they saw the house the friendship ended and her dd was no longer in that group. She’s got other friends but there is a divide and I think it’s naive to think there isn’t. We see it in adult life all the time but you can deny it if you like.

A different teacher friend was invited with her dd for a play date. Host made coffee then said great I’ll be back in an hour and a half, leaving friend to be the single responsible adult in this person’s house looking after her own dd plus house owner’s dd while the host went for a run (because df is the dc teacher so free childcare obviously). As I said, different world and not seen as equals.

I don't know about St Pauls but the average private school parent in Dulwich doesn't take helicopters. There are a few quite wealthy parents but the majority live in terraced houses and have two working professional parents.

Gruach · 02/04/2024 20:42

@MusicMum80s the OP’s main query is not whether Dulwich Prep offers bursaries (which should be clearly indicated on their website) but whether she might successfully apply for one outside the normal application timetable. (And whether claiming UC would put her in a special category.)