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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Original poster

Can the school do this? Breakfast and after-school club related.

104 replies

RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 14:57

DS moved schools in March after we moved house. He had some trouble settling in to start with but then seemed to be getting on ok. Parents evening was fine, no concerns raised at all.

I am going back to work next week after a year's maternity leave. I've emailed DSs (age 6) school to book him onto breakfast club for 3 days and after-school club for 1 day next week. I've had a response that says due to his "emotional difficulties" they basically don't have the staff to support him so he can't go.

For context, we have suspected ADHD for a while, and more recently possible PDA, he's very demand avoidant and does have meltdowns when he doesn't get his own way, but he's not violent or aggressive and when he's not having a meltdown, he's a delight. He doesn't have a EHCP, and I don't even know if school have made a referral for him to be assessed yet. I've been to the GP and they told me that school need to refer.

Recently (only the past 3 weeks, this was never an issue before at his old school. And I mean never!) we've been having trouble with him not wanting to go to school and a couple of occasions where he didn't want to come home and I had to drag him to the car (with the help of teachers on 1 of those occasions). He has tried to run off a couple of times and I had to abandon my other 2 children with the head teacher to run after him. As a result I now park in the school car park so that he is safe.

School have put some new coping strategies in place for him that do seem to work when he is feeling overwhelmed, and no one has expressed concerns with how he is behaving during the day. He has not tried to escape during the school day as far as we are aware. He comes out with a star chart filled up every day, and stickers all over his jumper. There's only been maybe only 1 or 2 days where he's not wanted to participate in an activity that I know he doesn't like anyway.

This week, the only occasion where he wouldn't go in was Monday morning, otherwise he has gone in and come out with no issues at all.

We have no family support, my DH works 7.30-4.30 and I will be working 8.30-5. I will drop off at 7.50 and DH will pick up at 5.15. My other 2 DCs will be going to a childminder 8-5 who is full up, and she was the only person I found locally with any spaces at all. We can't cut our hours down that much to accommodate a 2.45 finish every day (particularly at such short notice!) and neither of us has the option to WFH. We could use annual leave for an early finish for a short amount of time but that will get used up very quickly as we need to save some for Childminder holidays and Xmas where there is no childcare provision for him. After Whitsun week we need him in both clubs 5 days a week. I've had multiple conversations with the HT where I have mentioned me going back to work, and that he will need BF and AS club every day and that I won't be able to be hanging around trying to get him to go in as my morning schedule will be tight as it is, but she didn't mention anything about him not being able to go because of his recent behaviour.

I know he will enjoy after-school club, he's actually been asking to go. They get to pick what they do (so no demand placed on him), lots of crafting etc which he loves. He doesn't get to do that sort of stuff as often as he would like (every day) at home because my other 2 children are so young.

He also already starts school at 8.10, breakfast club starts at 7.50, so it's only an extra 20 minutes in the morning so I didn't really foresee an issue.

Sorry this is all a bit jumbled and much longer than I intended. Where do we stand with this as I know the BF and AS provision is not the same as the school day? Is there anything we can say/do/ask the school?

OP posts:
Fatat40 · 19/05/2023 15:04

I have no idea where you stand legally, I doubt you can force them to take him if they're saying they can't meet his needs / keep him safe / keep others safe.

However I think you need to look more broadly at the situation before taking on that battle. From what you say in the OP it seems very very unlikely he's going to settle into extended wrap around care 5 days/week.

Could you consider an SEN skilled nanny for all 3 kids? That might work better to let him be at home in his safe space.

Other that that I think you're going to have a difficult time attempting to return to work anywhere near full time. Can you both cut down to PT hours? You need to run some spreadsheets on the finances and see how else it could work.

Sirzy · 19/05/2023 15:08

If they don’t believe they can keep him safe then they are doing the right thing.

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 15:16

If I'd have known this was going to be an issue I could have maybe sorted this out before I went back to work. As it stands I'm starting new job, and they aren't going to be as accomodating with going part time etc.

DH is also in a new job and has had to argue to even be allowed to do 7.30-4.30.

I'm not forcing them to take him I just want to know if there is anything we can do to negotiate.

A nanny is unaffordable to a majority people so no.

OP posts:
GreenIsle · 19/05/2023 15:18

Could you ask them for a face to face meeting and see if they could perhaps trial it on a temporary basis.

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 15:36

GreenIsle · 19/05/2023 15:18

Could you ask them for a face to face meeting and see if they could perhaps trial it on a temporary basis.

Yes DH has asked to speak to the HT so we will see what they say.

Before the past couple of weeks I would have never thought we'd have these issues with him. Hes never been like this before.

OP posts:
BrieAndChilli · 19/05/2023 16:04

often the beofre/after school clubs are run by outside providers and are not actually directly run by the school. If it is privately run (ours was run by one of the TAs and lots of the school staff worked there but it was a independent from the school even though it was on school premises) so I think a private company can refuse a place for whatever reason. If it is a school run by the local authourity you may have more come back in getting a place but it is very rare that one-to-ones are funded for afterschool care.

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 16:13

It's definitely ran by the school and not an independent company.

I'm just at a loss as to what to do, as I've never had to deal with this before. Yes, he's got his problems but he's never been like this at school before only at home. He's had his silly moments but never had a full on meltdown at school. We had a struggle getting his old school to listen to our concerns as they never saw anything concerns other than lack of concentration.

OP posts:
tattygrl · 19/05/2023 16:22

This could be a situation wherein the potential risks are being viewed through different lenses by you and by the school. To you, you see your child as someone who has silly moments, has more problematic behaviour at home but not at school, and for whom you never envisioned having these issues with clubs etc. So it seems more straightforward to you that he "should" be ok with the clubs, from your experience and knowledge of him as his mother. However, the school have to take a more risk-averse approach in many ways - if they can identify a possibility that he will act in ways that the staff won't be able to safely handle (elopement, meltdown, etc.), then they may feel they have no other choice than to say no. They'll be looking at what they will be responsible and liable for should your child, for example, elope, and there not being enough staff to take care of all the children while also "retrieving" your son and ensuring his safety. Elopement is actually a very large risk factor, and it could be that that's causing the issue for them, especially in hours outside of normal school ones with fewer staff members on site.

Rainbowshine · 19/05/2023 16:22

At our school (small village school) the BC and ASC has one person running it, so they would not be able to have your son given he has meltdowns and runs away, they would not be able to manage those situations safely for your son, the other children and the supervising adult.

I think you could ask for a trial session or something, but they don’t have any legal obligation to provide wrap around care at all.

Fishisunak · 19/05/2023 16:28

You can apply for an EHCP, don't wait for the school to do it and ask your GP for a referral to community Paeds to get the ball rolling on a diagnosis- the waiting list here is 2+ years so the sooner you are on it, the better.

Swansong124 · 19/05/2023 16:36

If you’re paying for a childminder for two, a nanny would probably only be the same or a little bit more? I had to do all of the thinking for ages over this but it may be workable?

CabernetSauvignon · 19/05/2023 16:37

Is this within the school's control? Sometimes before and after school clubs are run by outside companies.

CabernetSauvignon · 19/05/2023 16:39

Sorry, ignore me, I see you've answered that question already.

CabernetSauvignon · 19/05/2023 16:42

Fishisunak · 19/05/2023 16:28

You can apply for an EHCP, don't wait for the school to do it and ask your GP for a referral to community Paeds to get the ball rolling on a diagnosis- the waiting list here is 2+ years so the sooner you are on it, the better.

This. SOS SEN and IPSEA have some helpful information on their websites about how to start the ball rolling. The sooner you do so, the better.

BAdopter · 19/05/2023 16:43

If it's an outside provider that has said this I'd be asking what information has been shared with them re concerns on your child. I'd want to know it's correct and certainly ask for further information on their decision.
With the difficulties your child is having though it may be too early for wrap around care while they are still settling.

starfishmummy · 19/05/2023 16:43

As a starting point I'd ask for a copy of the club's equality policy.

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 16:46

tattygrl · 19/05/2023 16:22

This could be a situation wherein the potential risks are being viewed through different lenses by you and by the school. To you, you see your child as someone who has silly moments, has more problematic behaviour at home but not at school, and for whom you never envisioned having these issues with clubs etc. So it seems more straightforward to you that he "should" be ok with the clubs, from your experience and knowledge of him as his mother. However, the school have to take a more risk-averse approach in many ways - if they can identify a possibility that he will act in ways that the staff won't be able to safely handle (elopement, meltdown, etc.), then they may feel they have no other choice than to say no. They'll be looking at what they will be responsible and liable for should your child, for example, elope, and there not being enough staff to take care of all the children while also "retrieving" your son and ensuring his safety. Elopement is actually a very large risk factor, and it could be that that's causing the issue for them, especially in hours outside of normal school ones with fewer staff members on site.

I do understand that, I really do. The change in him has just all come about so quickly, I've not had time to process it and what that might mean for him/us. Like I said, had I known all of this, I would have stuck with my old job that was working nights so wrap around care wasn't needed and I could be there for him at the drop of a hat. But it's too late now. I can't just not start my new job now, we need the money and I'm in a contract with the childminder.

They have done a behaviour management report and a risk assessment for him. I was actually really pleased with how well they have dealt with all this to be home. They have a special education unit within the school but he doesn't require that level of support. Before he started they came to our house to talk to him/us to make sure they could offer the right level of support, but these issues weren't present then.

I looked back through my WhatsApp messages to DH and the first date there was any issue was 25th April, when he first ran off going into school, so my dates are a bit off. But the issue hasn't been consistent every single day either.

OP posts:
Amdecre · 19/05/2023 16:46

CabernetSauvignon · 19/05/2023 16:42

This. SOS SEN and IPSEA have some helpful information on their websites about how to start the ball rolling. The sooner you do so, the better.

Show quote history

Also came on to say the school don't need to do a referral for an EHCP. The best thing would be for you to do it, but a GP is just as able to. Pisses me off when GPs and also social care push this back on schools - I'm sure they'd say they have no time, but I do EHCP referrals in the evenings or on a weekend so I clearly don't have time in my working week either!

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 16:48

CabernetSauvignon · 19/05/2023 16:42

This. SOS SEN and IPSEA have some helpful information on their websites about how to start the ball rolling. The sooner you do so, the better.

Show quote history

Thank you! I'll take a look!

OP posts:
2bazookas · 19/05/2023 16:48

Surely you can see that because your son is having problems at school during the usual day-length. now is not the time to pile pressure on him and the staff by extending his hours at school. If he starts the school day stressed with a meltdown and ends it exhausted and crabby at after school club, this could worsen his problem into major school-refusal (and oppositional defiance to you). Also impacts his social relations with other children in his class.

However inconvenient it is for you I think you have to recognise and accept the school is right. He's too young and sensitive to cope with extra time at school at the moment

KittyAlfred · 19/05/2023 16:51

Fishisunak · 19/05/2023 16:28

You can apply for an EHCP, don't wait for the school to do it and ask your GP for a referral to community Paeds to get the ball rolling on a diagnosis- the waiting list here is 2+ years so the sooner you are on it, the better.

GPs can’t refer without a school report.

tattygrl · 19/05/2023 16:52

RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 16:46

I do understand that, I really do. The change in him has just all come about so quickly, I've not had time to process it and what that might mean for him/us. Like I said, had I known all of this, I would have stuck with my old job that was working nights so wrap around care wasn't needed and I could be there for him at the drop of a hat. But it's too late now. I can't just not start my new job now, we need the money and I'm in a contract with the childminder.

They have done a behaviour management report and a risk assessment for him. I was actually really pleased with how well they have dealt with all this to be home. They have a special education unit within the school but he doesn't require that level of support. Before he started they came to our house to talk to him/us to make sure they could offer the right level of support, but these issues weren't present then.

I looked back through my WhatsApp messages to DH and the first date there was any issue was 25th April, when he first ran off going into school, so my dates are a bit off. But the issue hasn't been consistent every single day either.

Show quote history

I understand. It's so tough. I do feel that disability (any kind of struggles, mental health, etc.) shouldn't preclude a child from accessing anything that their school offers, but as obviously we all understand, if there's not enough staff to cover, what happens when it would be unsafe? It's so hard and really, schools should be adequately funded to provide the staff needed to allow ANY student to take part in anything that the school offers to its pupils. I wish I had some advice.

TheNeverEndingMugSupply · 19/05/2023 16:52

At DCs primary the wraparound is run by two TAs from the school, they don't have restraint training and they couldn't leave the other children to chase another child.

The wraparound policy for ours is on the school website, and it clearly states that while they will consider children with SN, they reserve the right to say no to accepting them for any reason.

I get it's difficult though. My DC has SN, not a flight risk or having meltdowns but can get a bit sleepy towards the end of the day. They do go to wraparound but it is continually reviewed, and there have been times where my DC hasn't gone as I or the club have felt it to risky or not in DCs interests.

KittyAlfred · 19/05/2023 16:55

Amdecre · 19/05/2023 16:46

Also came on to say the school don't need to do a referral for an EHCP. The best thing would be for you to do it, but a GP is just as able to. Pisses me off when GPs and also social care push this back on schools - I'm sure they'd say they have no time, but I do EHCP referrals in the evenings or on a weekend so I clearly don't have time in my working week either!

Show quote history

I’m a GP. If I try and refer a child for ADHD or ASD assessment the first box I come to on the referral form is “are you sending a school report with this referral?”. If I tick “no” then it says “please obtain a report from school before proceeding”.

It’s nothing to do with time. GPs do plenty of work in the evenings and weekends too, so don’t worry.

BungleandGeorge · 19/05/2023 16:59

And this is why parents of kids with SEN struggle to work. It’s much easier for the school to avoid any sort of inconvenience to themselves. Apply for an EHCP yourself, there’s not a lot you can do to force the issue in the short term, you may have to cut your hours down unfortunately