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Primary education

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Original poster

Can the school do this? Breakfast and after-school club related.

104 replies

RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 14:57

DS moved schools in March after we moved house. He had some trouble settling in to start with but then seemed to be getting on ok. Parents evening was fine, no concerns raised at all.

I am going back to work next week after a year's maternity leave. I've emailed DSs (age 6) school to book him onto breakfast club for 3 days and after-school club for 1 day next week. I've had a response that says due to his "emotional difficulties" they basically don't have the staff to support him so he can't go.

For context, we have suspected ADHD for a while, and more recently possible PDA, he's very demand avoidant and does have meltdowns when he doesn't get his own way, but he's not violent or aggressive and when he's not having a meltdown, he's a delight. He doesn't have a EHCP, and I don't even know if school have made a referral for him to be assessed yet. I've been to the GP and they told me that school need to refer.

Recently (only the past 3 weeks, this was never an issue before at his old school. And I mean never!) we've been having trouble with him not wanting to go to school and a couple of occasions where he didn't want to come home and I had to drag him to the car (with the help of teachers on 1 of those occasions). He has tried to run off a couple of times and I had to abandon my other 2 children with the head teacher to run after him. As a result I now park in the school car park so that he is safe.

School have put some new coping strategies in place for him that do seem to work when he is feeling overwhelmed, and no one has expressed concerns with how he is behaving during the day. He has not tried to escape during the school day as far as we are aware. He comes out with a star chart filled up every day, and stickers all over his jumper. There's only been maybe only 1 or 2 days where he's not wanted to participate in an activity that I know he doesn't like anyway.

This week, the only occasion where he wouldn't go in was Monday morning, otherwise he has gone in and come out with no issues at all.

We have no family support, my DH works 7.30-4.30 and I will be working 8.30-5. I will drop off at 7.50 and DH will pick up at 5.15. My other 2 DCs will be going to a childminder 8-5 who is full up, and she was the only person I found locally with any spaces at all. We can't cut our hours down that much to accommodate a 2.45 finish every day (particularly at such short notice!) and neither of us has the option to WFH. We could use annual leave for an early finish for a short amount of time but that will get used up very quickly as we need to save some for Childminder holidays and Xmas where there is no childcare provision for him. After Whitsun week we need him in both clubs 5 days a week. I've had multiple conversations with the HT where I have mentioned me going back to work, and that he will need BF and AS club every day and that I won't be able to be hanging around trying to get him to go in as my morning schedule will be tight as it is, but she didn't mention anything about him not being able to go because of his recent behaviour.

I know he will enjoy after-school club, he's actually been asking to go. They get to pick what they do (so no demand placed on him), lots of crafting etc which he loves. He doesn't get to do that sort of stuff as often as he would like (every day) at home because my other 2 children are so young.

He also already starts school at 8.10, breakfast club starts at 7.50, so it's only an extra 20 minutes in the morning so I didn't really foresee an issue.

Sorry this is all a bit jumbled and much longer than I intended. Where do we stand with this as I know the BF and AS provision is not the same as the school day? Is there anything we can say/do/ask the school?

OP posts:
Endofmytether2020 · 19/05/2023 17:00

Legally they have an anticipatory duty to make reasonable adjustments. Whether it is reasonable for them to have extra staff in is what they will argue. However, it would be discriminatory to set up a school club without making arrangement to include children with SEN and disabilities. I think the guidance for schools on the Equalities Act 2010 is quite clear on this. Whether the fact that he doesn't have a confirmed diagnosis precludes him from being covered by the act, I'm not sure, but if they are excluding him because of them, they must believe them to exist if you see what I mean. An EHCP is your solution because it will bring funding to the school specific to your child's needs, however in the meantime, they should be using the nominal SEN funding to make sure that all children can access all aspects of eduction including wraparound care. I'm very sorry that you are going through this and would say that the battle you have on your hands may not be worth the pain of fighting it.

Mummyoflittledragon · 19/05/2023 17:06

Idk the ages of your other dcs but can one of them go to the club instead and he goes to the cm? Or are they not school age?

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 17:08

2bazookas · 19/05/2023 16:48

Surely you can see that because your son is having problems at school during the usual day-length. now is not the time to pile pressure on him and the staff by extending his hours at school. If he starts the school day stressed with a meltdown and ends it exhausted and crabby at after school club, this could worsen his problem into major school-refusal (and oppositional defiance to you). Also impacts his social relations with other children in his class.

However inconvenient it is for you I think you have to recognise and accept the school is right. He's too young and sensitive to cope with extra time at school at the moment

I understand your point. However, I feel you haven't read the OP, where I said he is not having issues during the day as far as we are aware. And he says he WANTS to go to BC and ASC. He wants extra time in the morning in the sensory room. And he wants to do stuff after school. Unfortunately my other 2 DC overwhelm him and he doesn't like to be around them very much which was part of the reason he was refusing to come home. Another reason was that he said he wanted to be at school, when all the other reception children in his class weren't there. He's mixed reception and Y1 and this is part of the issue. In his old school he was mixed Y1 and Y2.

OP posts:
SocialLite · 19/05/2023 17:11

Mummyoflittledragon · 19/05/2023 17:06

Idk the ages of your other dcs but can one of them go to the club instead and he goes to the cm? Or are they not school age?

I was just going to suggest that

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 17:12

Mummyoflittledragon · 19/05/2023 17:06

Idk the ages of your other dcs but can one of them go to the club instead and he goes to the cm? Or are they not school age?

They are 3 and 1 so no. But she's at full capacity with her ratios and has other school age children before after school.

OP posts:
Hotpinkangel19 · 19/05/2023 17:23

I work in an ASC and unfortunately if he's been a flight risk it's just not safe. If they have risk assessed and deemed that they are unable to meet his needs unfortunately that's out of your hands. I know it's not helpful but they must have discussed why that can't take him.

Oblomov23 · 19/05/2023 17:29

You are in denial about how serious this is, how rapidly his behaviour has escalated. Why would any after school club take him when he's so risky.

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 17:29

Endofmytether2020 · 19/05/2023 17:00

Legally they have an anticipatory duty to make reasonable adjustments. Whether it is reasonable for them to have extra staff in is what they will argue. However, it would be discriminatory to set up a school club without making arrangement to include children with SEN and disabilities. I think the guidance for schools on the Equalities Act 2010 is quite clear on this. Whether the fact that he doesn't have a confirmed diagnosis precludes him from being covered by the act, I'm not sure, but if they are excluding him because of them, they must believe them to exist if you see what I mean. An EHCP is your solution because it will bring funding to the school specific to your child's needs, however in the meantime, they should be using the nominal SEN funding to make sure that all children can access all aspects of eduction including wraparound care. I'm very sorry that you are going through this and would say that the battle you have on your hands may not be worth the pain of fighting it.

Thank you for this, it's very helpful!

OP posts:
Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 17:36

Oblomov23 · 19/05/2023 17:29

You are in denial about how serious this is, how rapidly his behaviour has escalated. Why would any after school club take him when he's so risky.

I'm not in denial, I just don't know how to navigate this. It's all new to me. This behaviour is out of character for DS. I don't know how schools and the SEN world etc works

OP posts:
Mamansparkles · 19/05/2023 17:46

An EHCP will provide funding for school hours support, not before and after school care. They have a responsibility to make 'reasonable adjustments' like any private provider for a charged for service. The clue is in the name 'reasonable'. If they are clear that they can't make it safe for him then no, they don't have to take him out of core school hours. An EHCP will not solve this (although is still worth it for support in core hours).
Sorry OP, it is so difficult, but no, they don't have to take him and if they can't keep him safe they have to say no.

Soontobe60 · 19/05/2023 17:57

RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 17:08

I understand your point. However, I feel you haven't read the OP, where I said he is not having issues during the day as far as we are aware. And he says he WANTS to go to BC and ASC. He wants extra time in the morning in the sensory room. And he wants to do stuff after school. Unfortunately my other 2 DC overwhelm him and he doesn't like to be around them very much which was part of the reason he was refusing to come home. Another reason was that he said he wanted to be at school, when all the other reception children in his class weren't there. He's mixed reception and Y1 and this is part of the issue. In his old school he was mixed Y1 and Y2.

Show quote history

I think you’re being quite naive if you think he’s not having issues during the day. Children who come home covered in lovely stickers every day generally are those who are high needs in terms of behaviour support.
He sounds anxious, plus he’s in his second school at a very young age, has a new baby sibling plus another toddler sibling and his mummy is going back to work. Daddy isn’t around first thing in the morning so I imagine the start of school day is quite busy.
I think before and after school club will only exacerbate his anxiety at the moment.
In the short term, could one of you start work later so ds can be dropped off at the start of the school day whilst the other one drops off the younger two with their childminder. At the end of the school day, the other parent does the school pick up. At the same time, you need to push the EHCP process,

Ungratefulorunreasonable · 19/05/2023 18:00

Even if it's run by the school, they have no legal obligation to take your child. Children (or parents) don't have a right to wraparound care. Having an EHCP is unlikely to help either, as it will only cover the school hours, and won't support with funding for wraparound care.

gamerchick · 19/05/2023 18:02

RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 17:36

I'm not in denial, I just don't know how to navigate this. It's all new to me. This behaviour is out of character for DS. I don't know how schools and the SEN world etc works

Show quote history

No, pretty standard in a PDA kid. You can and should get an EHCP as this is going to get worse but its unlikely they're going to be able to feel they can keep him safe in the extra bits.

All the PDA kids I know end up school refusing and need to be home schooled. You need to start preparing as much as you can.

SisterWivesrus · 19/05/2023 18:05

BungleandGeorge · 19/05/2023 16:59

And this is why parents of kids with SEN struggle to work. It’s much easier for the school to avoid any sort of inconvenience to themselves. Apply for an EHCP yourself, there’s not a lot you can do to force the issue in the short term, you may have to cut your hours down unfortunately

They're not suggesting he isn't given an education. They're saying they don't have to provide childcare for OP.

pimplebum · 19/05/2023 18:09

You are totally missing the point

Your kids needs help

I'd prioritise that

CornishTiger · 19/05/2023 18:11

no advice on after club but look up right to choose assessments for ADHD. You could get an assessment in 6 mths rather than waiting years.

Amdecre · 19/05/2023 18:13

KittyAlfred · 19/05/2023 16:55

I’m a GP. If I try and refer a child for ADHD or ASD assessment the first box I come to on the referral form is “are you sending a school report with this referral?”. If I tick “no” then it says “please obtain a report from school before proceeding”.

It’s nothing to do with time. GPs do plenty of work in the evenings and weekends too, so don’t worry.

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I'm filling in a referral right now - you attach what forms you have, there's nothing to stop you sending reports from whatever professionals are available. But I'd happily supply a report over filling in the whole thing and chasing reports from other professionals, which is what schools are asked to do.

TomatoSandwiches · 19/05/2023 18:19

You are in denial as in how the school sees your son, they will not have a children that has previously absconded in Breakfast or ASC it just won't happen, at least right now or anytime soon to help your situation.

You need to get the ball rolling immediately on a parental application for an EHCP, focus on this because it takes a long time even if you don't need to appeal and your son is on a limited amount of time to get the right provisions at the right age.

If you have no other wrap around care options the only thing you can do is change your job or stop working.

I don't say this lighty, it is the realistic options you have unfortunately.
I have a child with SEN and I had to stop working, 7 years on and I still can not find any wrap around care for him, the service is just not there.

2reefsin30knots · 19/05/2023 18:30

Having an EHCP would not mean access to BC and ASC. I run specialist provision and the children placed in it can only access the school's BC and ASC if they can do so safely without any additional support. Their EHCP does not fund support before and after school.

OP, your DS coming out with a daily sticker chart and stickers all over his jumper suggests that they are working very hard to help him stay on track during the day. Perhaps they think extra hours in wrap-around would just overwhelm him more.

Dodgeitornot · 19/05/2023 18:35

Goodness me people on here are vultures. Sorry you're in this situation. Its really crap and unfair. In terms of your options, there's not much I'm afraid. You can try your best to plead with the head and maybe ask for a trial day or two, just to prove he can do it. I'm afraid an EHCP won't make much difference for this specific situation as that'll only fund core school hours, not wrap around care.

Pinkflipflop85 · 19/05/2023 18:35

The fact that he's coming out covered in stickers and has a chart to complete speaks volumes. The school are doing everything they can to keep him on an even keel and manage his behaviour throughout the day.

Heckythump1 · 19/05/2023 18:37

Our school will take children with additional needs in the breakfast and after school club, but if they require 1-2-1 then parents have to pay for this on top of normal club fees.

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 18:39

Soontobe60 · 19/05/2023 17:57

I think you’re being quite naive if you think he’s not having issues during the day. Children who come home covered in lovely stickers every day generally are those who are high needs in terms of behaviour support.
He sounds anxious, plus he’s in his second school at a very young age, has a new baby sibling plus another toddler sibling and his mummy is going back to work. Daddy isn’t around first thing in the morning so I imagine the start of school day is quite busy.
I think before and after school club will only exacerbate his anxiety at the moment.
In the short term, could one of you start work later so ds can be dropped off at the start of the school day whilst the other one drops off the younger two with their childminder. At the end of the school day, the other parent does the school pick up. At the same time, you need to push the EHCP process,

Show quote history

We haven't been told that there are issues during the day, so as far as I am aware, there aren't any. He doesn't like being told what to do and he will refuse to do certain things if he doesn't like them, I know that. But considering how new and recent the behaviours are, I would expect it to be communicated to us if he is having regular or severe meltdowns and trying to escape the school during the day.

Tbf I think they're being a bit over zealous with the star charts and stickers because he said he likes them, and they're a good reward/motivation for him. He likes to know the plan for the day so it's kind of a timetable and he gets a star when he's done certain lessons.

I do however agree that he is anxious and there has been a lot of change in a short amount of time.

I know the EHCP means nothing in relation to BC and ASC but I just wanted to give a full view of where we are at with things as it stands.

OP posts:
hoodieorhoody · 19/05/2023 18:53

But refusing to do things and disliking being told what to do IS an issue at school. It causes issues and takes up resources. My children don't always have meltdowns and run but they do take extra adult attention and supervision. In one child's case they coped ok with YR with a few red flags but nosedived in Y1-2. My child can't cope with after school clubs and holiday clubs are out. It is what it is- we've had to change how I expected things to work.

Original poster
RicktheBrick · 19/05/2023 19:03

hoodieorhoody · 19/05/2023 18:53

But refusing to do things and disliking being told what to do IS an issue at school. It causes issues and takes up resources. My children don't always have meltdowns and run but they do take extra adult attention and supervision. In one child's case they coped ok with YR with a few red flags but nosedived in Y1-2. My child can't cope with after school clubs and holiday clubs are out. It is what it is- we've had to change how I expected things to work.

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly.

He's not having these major meltdowns or trying to escape the school during the day. I meant these specific issues. I know he has other issues, which is why we have been trying to push for some sort of referral/assessment. But they're not severe and he has never required 1-2-1 or even any additional support at school before.

This has all come on so fast, and he's changed so much in such a short amount of time. It's hard to view him how the school see him now when I know he's not always like this.

OP posts: