Can the school do this? Breakfast and after-school club related.

[RicktheBrick]

DS moved schools in March after we moved house. He had some trouble settling in to start with but then seemed to be getting on ok. Parents evening was fine, no concerns raised at all.

I am going back to work next week after a year's maternity leave. I've emailed DSs (age 6) school to book him onto breakfast club for 3 days and after-school club for 1 day next week. I've had a response that says due to his "emotional difficulties" they basically don't have the staff to support him so he can't go.

For context, we have suspected ADHD for a while, and more recently possible PDA, he's very demand avoidant and does have meltdowns when he doesn't get his own way, but he's not violent or aggressive and when he's not having a meltdown, he's a delight. He doesn't have a EHCP, and I don't even know if school have made a referral for him to be assessed yet. I've been to the GP and they told me that school need to refer.

Recently (only the past 3 weeks, this was never an issue before at his old school. And I mean never!) we've been having trouble with him not wanting to go to school and a couple of occasions where he didn't want to come home and I had to drag him to the car (with the help of teachers on 1 of those occasions). He has tried to run off a couple of times and I had to abandon my other 2 children with the head teacher to run after him. As a result I now park in the school car park so that he is safe.

School have put some new coping strategies in place for him that do seem to work when he is feeling overwhelmed, and no one has expressed concerns with how he is behaving during the day. He has not tried to escape during the school day as far as we are aware. He comes out with a star chart filled up every day, and stickers all over his jumper. There's only been maybe only 1 or 2 days where he's not wanted to participate in an activity that I know he doesn't like anyway.

This week, the only occasion where he wouldn't go in was Monday morning, otherwise he has gone in and come out with no issues at all.

We have no family support, my DH works 7.30-4.30 and I will be working 8.30-5. I will drop off at 7.50 and DH will pick up at 5.15. My other 2 DCs will be going to a childminder 8-5 who is full up, and she was the only person I found locally with any spaces at all. We can't cut our hours down that much to accommodate a 2.45 finish every day (particularly at such short notice!) and neither of us has the option to WFH. We could use annual leave for an early finish for a short amount of time but that will get used up very quickly as we need to save some for Childminder holidays and Xmas where there is no childcare provision for him. After Whitsun week we need him in both clubs 5 days a week. I've had multiple conversations with the HT where I have mentioned me going back to work, and that he will need BF and AS club every day and that I won't be able to be hanging around trying to get him to go in as my morning schedule will be tight as it is, but she didn't mention anything about him not being able to go because of his recent behaviour.

I know he will enjoy after-school club, he's actually been asking to go. They get to pick what they do (so no demand placed on him), lots of crafting etc which he loves. He doesn't get to do that sort of stuff as often as he would like (every day) at home because my other 2 children are so young.

He also already starts school at 8.10, breakfast club starts at 7.50, so it's only an extra 20 minutes in the morning so I didn't really foresee an issue.

Sorry this is all a bit jumbled and much longer than I intended. Where do we stand with this as I know the BF and AS provision is not the same as the school day? Is there anything we can say/do/ask the school?

What are going to do when the school invariably says no to him attending the clubs op?

I have no idea 😞

Next week, it's only 1 day next week we need ASC, DH might be able to finish early but it's literally my first day on Wednesday, I feel unable to start asking to finish early or start late so soon.

With him starting at 8.10 normally already I could maybe make it to work by 8.30 at a push if I put my foot down on the country roads.

And after half term I'm really not sure.

We could try asking for a trial period.

DH seems to think we can force them to take him and that they can't say no to us, but I know that's not true! Please, nobody pile on about that as I DO KNOW, I promise. DH is just a bit deluded and thinks he has mega powers of persuasion (yes, he has similar issues to DS)

OP I think you need to have a serious conversation with your husband about your son's needs. That might involve reducing hours worked.

Your son has had to change schools, which is a massive thing at his age. He has two siblings younger than him and both parents working full time. Has he had to move house too?

I think his behaviour is absolutely normal for someone his age, in his situation. He doesn't necessarily have Special Needs, just ordinary ones, possibly. He is overwhelmed and is shutting down.

Please focus on him. He needs you right now.

I really feel for you, this sounds incredibly difficult when you have a job lined up and presumed you'd be able to use the before and after school care. The system is so unfair on parents who want to work, and whose DC's have difficulties that make it harder to do so.

If I might gently suggest though, when you say

"Recently (only the past 3 weeks, this was never an issue before at his old school. And I mean never!) we've been having trouble with him not wanting to go to school and a couple of occasions where he didn't want to come home and I had to drag him to the car (with the help of teachers on 1 of those occasions). He has tried to run off a couple of times and I had to abandon my other 2 children with the head teacher to run after him. As a result I now park in the school car park so that he is safe.......

That means in 3 weeks you've had:

-multiple times that he doesn't want to go to school
-2 occasions where he didn't want to leave school and he had to be dragged out (1 of these with a teacher helping)
-2 occasions where he has run off and you've had to run after him (1 of these with a teacher helping)

In three weeks! (With two bank holidays!) even if you dates are a bit out it is still a lot of different incidents in a very short space of time.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do think the school are right to see that this could result in situations where you DC is not safe if he was allowed to attend. I also think for my DC's, I notice they are a lot more tired on the weeks where they do most days in afterschool care, yes they get to choose their activities when there, and enjoy themselves, but the longer day does show in their behaviour, particularly towards the end of terms when they are shattered.

@RicktheBrick you really do have my full sympathy, I imagine when your DH initially realises the position you truly are in as a family he will probably cause more stress as well, understandably, but un helpful.

Would you consider your old job, is that an option?

Yes, we moved house in February.

Some of his behaviours aren't new tbh so we do think he has additional needs. Definitely ADHD as DH also has it. I suspected PDA a while ago but then things did improve for a while so I kind of forgot about it. Meltdowns at home weren't as frequent but did happen before. It's only recently that PDA has come up again and I think school do suspect more than just ADHD but we haven't had chance to have a proper sit down yet to discuss things in more detail.

The school refusal and meltdowns at school are the new behaviours.

Maybe ask your DH to find where it says the school has a legal duty to offer before and after school care- they could cancel it altogether, if they chose to, or operate a waiting list, and so on!

I think your only possible argument is disability discrimination- but I think the school will say they only have to make reasonable adjustments. They will say he is a flight risk, which he is, and they don't have the staff to safely manage him. Even if they agreed to recruit more staff (which probably isn't financially viable), it's outside the normal recruitment cycle for schools, and they'd likely say it wasn't possible to recruit until September- which would give you all of next half term to deal with.

I think asking for a trial is reasonable- and if he behaves as you hope, they will likely continue.

It does feel like you've left this very late to resolve. What if they'd said they couldn't take him because they didn't have space?

Not really, as onboarding takes a long time. I wouldn't be able to go back quickly enough and it's less money too.

BC is turn up on the day but pay in advance, and you can only book ASC a week in advance and it's first come first serve.

God what a pickle - you have all my sympathy. Is there a relative or family friend you can beg a favour from or pay?

Afterschool provision generally is a scandal - there are excellent clubs and fantastic childminders - but it's a chaotic hodgepodge that in practice makes it hard for so many women to work. It's rubbish, and it's not your fault.

No friends local and my DF still works full time and my DM is disabled and wouldn't be able to cope with him before and after school every single day. As a one off yes but not that regularly unfortunately.

I have a D’s with adhd and Asd ( I think pda but it isn’t diagnosed in our county )

I will say as he has gone through school the demands are higher and it is so much more noticeable .

He is in year 11 needs frequent support , has 1-1 for his GCSE’s - one thing I found as he went through school , once his mask slipped it could escalate quickly .

I don’t have easy answers for you . It has taken till my Ds is 13 before I could get a job out of the home .

you probably under estimate the adaptions you make at home for your Ds.

Yes I do agree it's a lot in a short space of time and ultimately they do have to do what they think is best. I'm just really frustrated that this now fucks everything up, and that school are unable to support us.

I guess I hoped someone would have the magic answer

I've realised this now. When I didn't need it, I didn't even know how bad it was. I guess ignorance is bliss.

What an ignorant comment. You think that school staff see educating SEND children as an inconvenience? Really? That’s so far off the mark it’s untrue. You do realise the dire financial straits that schools are in? The problem they have with recruitment, even in outstanding schools? We just can’t get the right staff for our LSA jobs, you can’t just take anyone, although at times it’s felt like we’ve had to take any old person, just so that we have the right ratios. SEND children deserve to have passionate staff with the right skills and personal qualities, not just any Tom, Dick or Harry.

I’ve never worked with such a dedicated set of people than my colleagues in my primary school. Everyone works hours for nothing, even those on not much more than minimum wage, just to give the kids the best experience they can. The headteacher is outstanding and passionate about educating SEND kids to the point of crying with frustration at not being able to provide what we know some of them need. The SENCO is leaving education altogether because he wants to not have to work every evening and weekend and school holiday. If he just decided not to do all that extra time then hardly any SEND stuff would get done and he knows he would be letting those children down. So he’s done what he could for a number of years, and done it outstandingly but no-one can carry on like that with the funding the way it is.

There are broken experienced and passionate staff in schools, doing the best for SEND children. But it takes more good quality staff and resources. And that costs money. You should be pointing the finger at the government, not schools. Schools are on your side. Shame you can’t see it.

Sorry, quote didn’t come out.

that was to @BungleandGeorge I response to

And this is why parents of kids with SEN struggle to work. It’s much easier for the school to avoid any sort of inconvenience to themselves

Did you mean to quote some in that rant because I made no such comments?

The GPs most certainly can in the area I work in. Of course they would prefer schools to do it as the forms are a complete bitch, particularly if you’re going to do it properly.

Ah yes I see now, thanks for clarifying!

I suppose it can't hurt to try again now we have moved doctors, maybe the new doctors will be happy to do it. The worst they can say is no.

How long have you suspected ADHD. Why did you not insist on a referral a year ago? Insist now.

It depends on the area you’re in. I can’t see a reason why a medical doctor can’t refer to another medical team to potentially diagnose a medical condition. If the other medical team need any input from education, they request it.

You are going to need to be more proactive. Fight. For your son, speak to Senco, demand a meeting. Demand they act. Insist GP refers immediately.

My child sounds pretty much like yours and no way would she be able to cope with breakfast club then a whole day at school and after school club too!
My child would be so unregulated it would be hard for the staff and her.