Can the school do this? Breakfast and after-school club related.

[RicktheBrick]

DS moved schools in March after we moved house. He had some trouble settling in to start with but then seemed to be getting on ok. Parents evening was fine, no concerns raised at all.

I am going back to work next week after a year's maternity leave. I've emailed DSs (age 6) school to book him onto breakfast club for 3 days and after-school club for 1 day next week. I've had a response that says due to his "emotional difficulties" they basically don't have the staff to support him so he can't go.

For context, we have suspected ADHD for a while, and more recently possible PDA, he's very demand avoidant and does have meltdowns when he doesn't get his own way, but he's not violent or aggressive and when he's not having a meltdown, he's a delight. He doesn't have a EHCP, and I don't even know if school have made a referral for him to be assessed yet. I've been to the GP and they told me that school need to refer.

Recently (only the past 3 weeks, this was never an issue before at his old school. And I mean never!) we've been having trouble with him not wanting to go to school and a couple of occasions where he didn't want to come home and I had to drag him to the car (with the help of teachers on 1 of those occasions). He has tried to run off a couple of times and I had to abandon my other 2 children with the head teacher to run after him. As a result I now park in the school car park so that he is safe.

School have put some new coping strategies in place for him that do seem to work when he is feeling overwhelmed, and no one has expressed concerns with how he is behaving during the day. He has not tried to escape during the school day as far as we are aware. He comes out with a star chart filled up every day, and stickers all over his jumper. There's only been maybe only 1 or 2 days where he's not wanted to participate in an activity that I know he doesn't like anyway.

This week, the only occasion where he wouldn't go in was Monday morning, otherwise he has gone in and come out with no issues at all.

We have no family support, my DH works 7.30-4.30 and I will be working 8.30-5. I will drop off at 7.50 and DH will pick up at 5.15. My other 2 DCs will be going to a childminder 8-5 who is full up, and she was the only person I found locally with any spaces at all. We can't cut our hours down that much to accommodate a 2.45 finish every day (particularly at such short notice!) and neither of us has the option to WFH. We could use annual leave for an early finish for a short amount of time but that will get used up very quickly as we need to save some for Childminder holidays and Xmas where there is no childcare provision for him. After Whitsun week we need him in both clubs 5 days a week. I've had multiple conversations with the HT where I have mentioned me going back to work, and that he will need BF and AS club every day and that I won't be able to be hanging around trying to get him to go in as my morning schedule will be tight as it is, but she didn't mention anything about him not being able to go because of his recent behaviour.

I know he will enjoy after-school club, he's actually been asking to go. They get to pick what they do (so no demand placed on him), lots of crafting etc which he loves. He doesn't get to do that sort of stuff as often as he would like (every day) at home because my other 2 children are so young.

He also already starts school at 8.10, breakfast club starts at 7.50, so it's only an extra 20 minutes in the morning so I didn't really foresee an issue.

Sorry this is all a bit jumbled and much longer than I intended. Where do we stand with this as I know the BF and AS provision is not the same as the school day? Is there anything we can say/do/ask the school?

I think assessing his needs and pushing for an EHCP for him if that is felt necessary are both absolutely the right thing. But ultimately these won't help your current situation.

1. Not all EHCPs come with any funding at all, especially now with the dire financial situation the education sector is in. Even those which come with SOME funding, it is an absolutely nominal amount which will in no way cover a member of staff for example to support him.

2. Even if he gets the EHCP and a decent amount of funding, it is to support in school so won't cover before or after school provision.

So please continue advocating for his needs to be assessed, but I just don't want you to pin your hopes on an EHCP solving the problem. Until people vote accordingly, or the government have a massive change of policy, school budgets are in a really poor state and as much as teachers and schools do their absolute best for the children in their care, they aren't miracle workers.

In terms of your current situation, the wraparound care don't have to accept him, and honestly it does sound like it would not be the best thing for him, or for the other children they have an equal duty of care towards.

Which leaves you the options of finding alternative care provision for him, using parental leave to sort things short term, and ultimately if these difficulties persist then you or your DH need to consider whether your jobs are workable around his needs. But I do feel for you, it is a difficult position to be in for sure.

they should be using the nominal SEN funding to make sure that all children can access all aspects of eduction including wraparound care

But wraparound care is childcare, the reason it exists is to enable parents to work. It ISN’T part of the education offering. It is there for the benefit of the parents and their employer, not the child.

We have a huge problem in this country with employers not offering proper family friendly working patterns. I don’t think that schools and their staff necessarily SHOULD be the ones providing the wraparound care. They don’t always have the facilities or space to do this. They certainly don’t all have the staff able or willing to do the extra hours when they should instead be prepping for the day ahead and then in the evenings tidying up classrooms, calling parents, attending meetings etc.

Some children struggle with the long days that result from attending breakfast club and ASC as well as a full day in school. If they are natural introverts it’s hard for them being around that many people for so long, surrounded by activity and noise. So I don’t think wraparound care is necessarily the answer to working parents’ childcare dilemmas because the only people benefiting from all that ultimately are demanding bosses in the workplace.

Flexible working patterns are key to this, I think, and we should be looking to other countries who do value that.

I had a similar situation with my daughter who has ASD when she was in primary school. Outside provider ran the breakfast club and suddenly said they could not cater to her 1:1 needs anymore.
She wasn't even difficult just needed someone keeping an eye on her.
I was working and needed to use this so I didn't accept it, I think its discrimination for the school to provide something that's not accessible for all pupils or to make adjustments where possible to make ot so.
I took it to the headmaster of the school who agreed and then arranged for one of the TAs to be present in the club with her.
She did have a statement of SEN so not sure if that makes a difference but I would definitely challenge it with the school.
As parents of kids with additional needs we still need to be able to work amd be able to access what other parents can.

I wonder if you would be eligible for carers allowance? There’s eligibility criteria and your child would need to also be receiving certain benefits (I haven’t looked at it in a while).

While I KIND of see what you mean, I don’t think your argument was as clear cut as that. If it was an outside provider, why did you look to the school to provide the TA? It is the outside provider running the care, so the onus is on THEM to provide someone. Schools struggle to provide TAs during the school day, god help us if they are expected to provide their own staff to outside providers outside school hours.

Did you pay extra for the TA yourself? No, that would be considered discriminatory. So what will end up happening is that outside wraparound care providers would simply put their fees up for EVERYONE, so that there is enough revenue to provide for any one to ones that are needed during wraparound care time. The government will need to provide additional funding for SEND provision outside of school hours. Money should not be taken from a school’s nominal SEND budget to enable to provide parents to work longer hours, thereby worsening the SEND educational experience even more. Funding will simply HAVE to come from another source for those children, if this is going to be a more common occurrence now that the cost of living usually means 2 FT work parents and grandparents working for longer themselves.

Quite a while.

Unfortunately, we had a difficult time trying to convince his teachers that he has it.

Pre school just said he was really advanced and bored with the younger children and just liked adult interaction and 1-2-1 attention.

His reception teacher didn't believe us, said he's incredibly bright just perhaps a little bored. But he's a September baby so he's just ahead of everyone else she said.

His Y1 didn't refer when he said be would after seeing what we see in class.

He was meant to be observed just before we moved but he was sick just as we were about to leave for school so he could go in and they couldn't rearrange before we moved.

New school raised no concerns until the first incident 4 weeks ago. And here we are now.

Sorry you had the same issues and I'm glad you were able to get it resolved. Thank you for your reply, it's really helpful!

He's not particularly difficult, honestly, I know it sounds like he is, but like I say, this is so out of character for him, especially at school. Someone to sit and chat with him, keep an eye on him and know how to help him de-escalate if it comes to that would be ideal, I'd definitely pay more that the £8.50 a day for both clubs if needed!

I just want to reiterate, that I do know an EHCP is not going to help on this specific situation regarding wrap around care. But I was just stating that we don't have one yet, to show how early on in this whole process we are.

That's good to know, thank you so much.

I will definitely pursue this avenue.

It totally depends on your area I’m afraid. Im a GP
and referrals to CAHMS for Nero-developmental issues in school age children will be automatically rejected unless they come from a school in our area. I even had one rejected when the child was between schools. Nothing to do with being lazy!

Ah ok, interesting! I will try and find out how it works in my area, thank you!

Sympathies OP. I have 3 DNephews with ASD and 1 also has PDA. Like your DS, they seemed "fine" at school until around year 1. They were able to mask at school during nursery and reception where there was lots of free play and outside access. They were also labelled as "bored and enjoying the company of adults" in reception. They actually found the noise and other children overwhelming. I will say, when the wheels fell off, they fell off quickly with 2 of the 3 DC requiring SS placements.

It does sound like the BC and ASC feel they cannot meet needs. Staffing in BC and ASC is tight and from your updates it sounds like your DS will need quite a bit of supervision and checking in. Also if he wishes to use the sensory room/ reception classroom this will require an adult. I doubt all the children in BC or ASC will be able to fit in the sensory room so a staff member will have to go with him, leaving the rest of the club short.

It sounds like he is finding his new school a struggle. A lot of change in a short space of time and a new class as well. You mentioned in his previous school it was a y1/2 mix, this is likely to have been a calmer, more structured environment where most of the children are doing learning tasks for some if not most of the lesson. Now he is in a reception/yr1 mix and is likely a noiser, busier environment with not everyone doing learning tasks at the same time.

Year 1 is an interesting year full of change and transition. Done well it transitions where reception left off with focus time and play based learning, building to more traditional lessons with carpet time, task time and play happening at break time. It is between Christmas and Easter where the learning and desk time starts to extend. After Easter the learning and desk time extends further to almost the entire lesson, often the free play choice moves from outside time to indoor tasks such as looking at books/ engaging in a play based phonics/ number tasks. These all have demands.

Similarly with home, with 2 younger siblings it will be noisy and busy ( just the way it is). ASD children can be sensitive to noise. Is there a way your DS could have a den/ space where he can decompress from siblings. I know one of our DN really needs a decompression space from their siblings. They need the alone time just to decompress from the day.

Good luck OP. Even if you can find some ASC, I feel you may need to look at working hours and what may be best for the DC.

You are absolutely correct, that all sounds very familiar. And yes noise is also a massive trigger for him (and DH).

He has a den under his loft bed and he likes to spend time alone in his room just doing what he wants to do. Unfortunately he cannot be trusted alone for long periods of time so unless DH and I are both at home for 1 of us to keep checking in on him, then he can't always go up them for too long as the other 2 can't really be left alone. He won't tolerate a camera in his room otherwise I'd get an extra camera for the baby monitor but he'd just turn it off at the plug.

As the school have a special education unit, they have specific members of staff dedicated to the sensory room in the mornings, where they can go and hang out and chill out before starting school, which is why he has been starting at 8.10 rather than 8.45. He just doesn't like having to share the space with other children. I think they all have a time slot and some of them overlap slightly. I don't think ASC have the same provision/amount of staff, but BC definitely do have the capacity to supervise him appropriately.

He definitely has an aversion to the reception children and I think like you say, the fact that they are often not doing the same thing and are split up and go into a different classroom really triggers him for some reason. He has ear defenders (from going to the football with DH) but won't use them at school.

Is there maybe a school mum who would take him home for a couple of hours. I've lost track of what the laws are around that now, but there's always a way around it. Quite a lot of people could do with extra cash. Or someone local with younger kids, or an older person. Or TA...

it's so difficult for both parents to work full time when a child has additional needs,

The school will not report how hard they have to work to get him to comply. The fact that he isn't absconding during the day does not mean there isn't a problem. I think you need to find out how tricky he really is in school.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/315587/Equality_Act_Advice_Final.pdf Page 7 section 1.5. I think it's quite clear that the Act does cover benefits and services offered by the school. Have a look through the whole thing and see if you think your post is correct. And yes, well paid flexible working is of course beneficial to society but it's not really going to help the OP with their current problem.

I agree that the act would cover this situation, so thank you for sharing that information.

What I wanted to clarify though, was, because we don't have a specific diagnosis, could they not argue that it's not actually disability discrimination because he doesn't technically have a disability?

1.5 The Act makes it unlawful for the responsible body of a school to discriminate against, harass or victimise a pupil or potential pupil:  in relation to admissions,  in the way it provides education for pupils,  in the way it provides pupils access to any benefit, facility or service, or  by excluding a pupil or subjecting them to any other detriment.

Is it this bit you're referring to? "the way it provides pupils access to any benefit, facility or service"? My point was, with an external provider running the wraparound care, the school isn't the body providing access to that, in my view. It is the provider themselves who are providing the access, who set the rules, fees, provide the staff etc. The school is simply letting them hire the space within the school grounds. It is thus up to the provider to ensure that it complies with all the equality legislation it needs to. It is up to the provider to ensure that it can provide adequate supervision for the kids that need it.

If the school ITSELF is the provider, then yes, they need to also provide adequate supervision for the kids that need it. How they do this is up to them. If it means putting up fees to cover extra staffing for that child and any subsequent children with extra needs then surely they would have to do this.

This is all just the way I view the wording of the act. Whether I'm wrong legally I have no idea.

He won't tolerate a camera in his room otherwise I'd get an extra camera for the baby monitor but he'd just turn it off at the plug.
What about a rechargeable camera up high, preferably where it's not obvious? Anything you can do to open up that quite place for him and reduce the sensory load on him at home will give him more resources to cope.

Is he able to have sensory breaks during the day in the sensory room you spoke of? I'd be pushing for that if he doesn't, get the school onside, what can they do to reduce sensory load. Plan for next year early. What can they do going forward next year to reduce the in class sensory burden? The total sensory load adds up across the day. It's a slower process but if he can be given the right scaffolding to reduce the sensory burden at school and you can reduce the sensory burden at home it might make the transitions between home and school easier. He still might not be able to cope with B/ASC, some of the limits are more finite. I understand getting back to work is your focus and how important that is, but the relality for lot of families with SEN kids is that it's impossible for both parents to work full time because of the things like their child not coping with B/ASC.

Having said that I would push for a trial of BSC and ASC with the proviso you/his Dad will be onhand maybe in the car park so you could be immediately contactable if there's an issue. Unfortunately the problem there is the cumulative effect builds up over weeks and terms, so even if he has a perfect first week that doesn't mean it will continue. Is there any option for you both to move hours? Could DH start at 6:30 and end at 2:30, and you start at later and end later. I know families who have staggered work patterns like these, of course that depends on the jobs and your employers needs. Given the time frames I be chasing up and and every option you can find right now. Good luck with it all, it's a tough gig.

Apply for DLA. This is based on the needs of a child, rather than on a diagnosis. You need to demonstrate that your DC requires more supervision/support than a typical child of their age.
Unlike most benefits, it's not means tested. The form is pretty hideous just to warn you and it's taking several months for claims to be looked at, at the minute. However, if it's awarded, it could be around £300 a month (depending on the level of award). This money can be used to support the child in any way. You could put it towards additional childcare costs (eg getting a nanny):

This guide is invaluable for advice about how to fill the form in:
https://cerebra.org.uk/download/disability-living-allowance-dla-guide/

Sadly, I have known parents in your position with regard to wraparound care and they haven't been able to persuade the after schools club to budge - this is even when the DC has an EHCP.

There's some info about this here:

https://www.specialneedsjungle.com/faq/defintion-education-used-education-health-care-plan/

You are wrong legally. Services provided to school pupils on the school premises are generally deemed to come under school benefits and services. If this was successfully challenged by the school though, it would be up to the provider to make reasonable adjustments - not good enough for them to say they don't take children with different needs. They have an anticipatory duty to figure out how they would support children with disabilities.

One other perspective - doesn't help your short term problem but might help long term - not all after school clubs are the same. The right one can be a godsend in helping ND kids make friends and be happy. https://outofschoolalliance.co.uk/welcome might perhaps have guidance as to how to find a good one.

It's wrap-around child-care designed to make parents lives easier.

Great job if parents of children who would make it unsafe succeed in saying they should be entitled to the same provision.

That might be true legally but then what will happen is schools will withdraw it for all pupils.

Slow hand clap.

For us the ASC has acted like the best imaginable child led play therapy. It can happen, but it might mean looking at a new school and taking ASC provision as a starting point not an afterthought.

This has all come on so fast, and he's changed so much in such a short amount of time. It's hard to view him how the school see him now when I know he's not always like this.

OP I've worked in schools for many years and 6 is often the age when children with additional needs who have previously been able to cope with the environment, suddenly find it much more difficult. It may seem like a rapid change to you but schools see it all the time.

Children with additional needs often cope better at home because parents, perhaps even without consciously recognising it, make adjustments to help their child. These adjustments cannot always be catered for in different settings.

ASC is not going to be free play all the time. There will times that children need to line up for hand washing, snacks, move outside, etc. There will be transitions which he may find difficult. It won't be just crafts all the time.

One suggestion which might help, you could ask school if there was a TA who would be willing to attend with him 1-1 if you pay for their time? Not sure if this has been mentioned on your thread.