Atheist in Roman Catholic Primary - experiences sought, please.

[ScaredHeart]

We have relocated and been advised that our two options going in at this stage to Year 3 are the Roman Catholic school, which is a very quick walk from home, or the no-religion school which is over an hour's walk away (traffic dire at peak times, I don't want to drive anyway). We could home ed in the hope that a closer non-religious school comes up for September - the LA says there is often movement at this stage in this borough.
DD is happy to see out this term home edded, as am I, but equally, ok to start if a preferred place is offered.

I am vehemently atheist. I cannot stand the religious imposition in schools. But the prospect of a short walk every day, Vs a very very long one, are giving me pause. I'd like for DD to make local friends, not ones who live over an hour's walk away, or further.

I wonder how seriously pushy most Catholic primaries are in this regard. Atheist patents with any experience or views? We will not go to church. I don't want DD being told god is real. (Unless during now and then, proof materialises.)

Other considerations.
RC school is one-form entry.
Non-religious one with current space is SIX-form entry.
Non-religious one with no space but may have space in September is four-form.
Would you pick the tiny RC school or the much bigger ones, if you had the choice?

My children are at a RC school and although we aren’t RC we are religious. I think if you send them you need to make your peace completely with it being an RC school. It’s not fair to send them and then moan to the school continually about something that is absolutely core to what the school is. For almost all the other parents this is something actively want for their children so you are sort of setting yourself up for a problem.
It would be like me actively sending my child to Koran lessons and then moaning that this after school class wasn’t inclusive of my beliefs as a Christian. It’s just daft.

"I think if you send them you need to make your peace completely with it being an RC school. It’s not fair to send them and then moan to the school continually about something that is absolutely core to what the school is. " I agree. You'd be setting yourself up for disappointment and conflict, neither of which is going to be helpful to your child.

Indeed so - but I, and the many millions of others of a different faith or none should not be paying taxes for children to be indoctrinated with what for us is misinformation, otherwise known as lies.

I pay taxes for many things I don't personally use or approve of. It's part of living in a pluralistic society, and the alternative is worse. We don't have separation of church and state in the UK (quite the opposite), so it's hardly surprising that some state schools represent religious groups. It's a much broader issue, and not entirely relevant to OP's decision-making on this thread.

But the OP is (potentially) having to use this service. That's the issue.

The OP is not unusual in being atheist. The majority of the UK population don't follow a religion!

It is wrong to allocate children to schools based on the religion of their parents. We wouldn't allow this in any other public service.

Imagery no child, or even adult, really wants to see day in, day out, imho.
I expect she can't escape being told god is real/fact. She already understands that I do not believe there is a god, and am more evidence-based when we learn something together. But I wonder of the impact of her understanding that teachers present certain things as facts when they aren't, so how can she believe anything else they say?

What will they do with her if I ask them to opt her out of collective worship or daily religious observations? I'm equally concerned about her being singled out and sat alone. Argh. Would be great if I can just bring her in at 9.30!

Not worried about the guilt aspect. I was drilled in Catholic schools up to my GCSEs and escaped with none of that catholic guilt stuff, but I'll keep an extra observant eye on that, thank you.

Could I be somewhat encouraged though by your stats that about 45% of the other pupils don't follow the Catholic faith either?

Whilst you have not said that, daily instruction from authority figures go young, open minds does somewhat attempt to push the narrative that god is real, god is to be worshiped/praised, etc.

You are free to tell your child what you believe, as I am mine, but I feel that religious instruction can be done within the families, or at church/synagogue/mosque etc, rather than take up valuable time at school, and impose upon children who aren't there to be instructed in this particular religion.

If a space doesn't come up in the secular school that is about 15-20 minutes' walk by September, I really don't think the one two miles away is feasible, so I may have to "choose" the RC one, but it doesn't really feel like a choice.

We are at this stage of choosing in the summer term of Y3 due to a change in personal circumstances necessitating a relocation as well as a change in lifestyle, so I'd be in this situation even if my children had been in school elsewhere first.

It may well be that I like the rc school enough when we visit (Monday!), and maybe the Head has some solutions for us. I drove past earlier today, and pointed it out to DD, who liked the building, and the sweet little street it's in. And the nice gingham uniforms! So I'm not totally ruling it out, despite my misgivings. But I wish it didn't have the religious element.

I don't plan on moaning. It needs to suit us more than the alternatives though, and if we feel the school can be accomodating of our differences, make allowances in a positive way (maybe time DD's piano lessons with the religious assemblies), we can make it workable. Do all parents there actively want a Catholic education, or were some in the same position as me of not really having a great deal of choice? Maybe they chose it primarily for the proximity to their home, or the size (one form entry Vs most having 120 kids per year), or some other reason.

You’re conflating a few different things.

1-Does this school (like other Catholic schools) have a strong thread of Catholicism like daily prayers, regular Masses, involvement with the local church, assemblies based on the church’s teaching? Yes, it absolutely does, and my personal view is that it’s probably too knitted into the school day to feasibly or kindly withdraw a child from those aspects. You can discuss that with the HT who’ll be able to give you a clear picture.

2 - Is every child at that school Catholic? No, a significant proportion are not.

3- Does that mean the non-Catholic parents oppose its Catholicism? Not, not least because it is surrounded by non-faith schools that local parents can choose when they apply for Reception places - Year 3 applications are obviously different. It also has other unique and valuable attributes for which parents choose it, such as great SEN provision and a truly lovely ethos and inclusivity. There are also children of families which practise other faiths whose parents find the Catholic element closer to their own views than a non-faith school.

I’m glad you’re visiting - in my view it’s a truly special place, and I feel passionately about the great experience we’ve had there so far, but I’ve tried to answer your questions honestly so you can take an informed view that’s right for your child. I’m not trying to reassure, just to be honest.

I completely understand where you are coming from and I personally do sympathise in your circumstances.
I think you could be pleasantly surprised at the school, it is very different to the 80s when we were taught by nuns etc. All faiths are covered and as long as yourself and DD respect the faith of the school, there shouldn't be a problem.

I do not personally see what is wrong with faith schools, they've bought their buildings and land for the purpose of their religion for their children to provide that faith within schools that is supported at home. It would be completely different if every school in the UK, that was government owned, were of faith, then even I would say that is wrong and discriminating against other beliefs or no belief. In fairness how many Catholic schools are there compared to 'state' schools? Very few. I know we have more choice in London but Where my grandchild is, outside London, there is only 1 school in the whole county and he will travel 3 and half miles to school but it's their choice for him to be educated within their faith.

where I live, it's a big Jewish community, there is 4 Jewish schools within less of 1 mile of each other, even the nurseries locally are Jewish. We have 2 Hindu schools, 1 Church of England, 1 Catholic and 1 Islamic (thats a little further). There is 7 'state' schools that are very close, so a big choice, these are all in a 20 minute walk.

I'm also looking for a prep school at the moment for my youngest daughter (massive age gap to the others lol) I want a Catholic school but in the private sector, they are just not the same if that makes sense. It's why I said to look at the s48. It's what I've being doing for the private schools. I think I've found one, that is over 90% Catholic and has an outstanding report, but some of the schools I saw were only 20%. It means a lot to me and travelling or moving would defiantly be something I'm willing to do.

good luck with everything, let us know how it goes :)

I appreciate that, thank you so much.

We are looking forward to checking it out.

The problem with the faith schools is the mismatch between their aims and agenda and the aims of state education as a whole.

If you are taking taxpayers' money, it is pretty odd to be imposing religious conditions such as worship on non religious taxpayers. Private religious schools that follow the National Curriculum - fine.

The Jewish schools are I think a little different, as they only occur in areas where there are many Jewish people, but the Catholic schools have become mismatched to their areas over time as original residents have moved out and the population has become less religious.

Thank you. I do like much of what HerculesMulligan (whose child goes to this school) has told me about it. It could possibly work. I feel very uncomfortable though with not only the religious content, but how much there seems to be, when I'd much rather that time was used to teach music, art, yoga, sport - pretty much anything else feels far more valuable to me. Or indeed just having a slightly shorter school day. I remember feeling that so much of my day was wasted at school on all this religious stuff. I never liked it. I don't think any of my fellow pupils did either. We all found it a chore.

There simply aren't enough schools where I am, that every parent gets their choice. I wouldn't be in this predicament if there were.

I hope you too find a suitable school for your youngest! I will of course update. Good luck to us all!

@Phineyj , can you please expand on what you mean by this:

“The problem with the faith schools is the mismatch between their aims and agenda and the aims of state education as a whole.”

As someone who went to a private Catholic convent for 3 years (I knew someone there) after being at the scruffy girls school down the road I’d advise caution and speak to other parents.

For me, I recall the nuns saying there’d be no forcing religion on me (as a non practicing Protestant) but there was definite pressure once I actually started! This school also took other faiths who had to do scripture etc but not the deadly boring Friday masses etc. I think DM wishes now she’d sent me to the local private girls school where I knew no one. My stepdad (Irish) a non practising Catholic I think was quite baffled by why we chose a convent as he’d seen it all before (life size wax effigies in cases, relics etc). Quite scary for a teenager let alone a child, if you’re not Catholic!

I always read these shocked how strict around religion the Catholic schools where/are! I went to Catholic primary and secondary 80/90’s. Yes we had RE lessons & said prayers before dinner. Holy Communion was taught at church so we didn’t have any extra lessons. Non-Catholic children could join in or not for religious - I don’t remember anyone not joining in Easter bonnet parade or harvest festival! I remember having the most open conversation around abortion with the RE teacher (who was a Brother) and hell was never mentioned - choice was. And at the end of the debate I was still allowed my choice that abortion is a choice.

I sent my children to a Catholic school - again it isn’t a cult like thing. My oldest is now 20 and very much atheist, my 13 year old had yet to make her mind up. They’ve learnt a lot about other religions and philosophy.

Go visit - if it’s to much the other way then don’t send them - it’s your choice to send the children where your comfortable.

You were very lucky! My convent (fee paying) was super strict in the 80s and the nuns ran it with fists of iron.

We were expected to get married and not have to work and definitely no sex before marriage, and local Catholic boys school, there was a sort of keep away from them, but they’re Catholic boys so you may end up marrying one! I was told to ignore the girls school I’d joined from (just down the hill) as those girls were common and not to be mixed with!

They don't hear a balanced argument in a religious school. They are told things as fact. I'm all for kids learning about religion and making their own mind up but this won't happen in a "religious" school

You could consider the good they do too. Many of the community initiatives and charities we know of and support are religious. A friend works in prisons and the major initiatives in supporting the inhabitants during their term and on release are jesuit led. Another friend works with homeless and rehab. Big cross church initiative in providing temporary accom over winter. We donate to some charities that are the major supports for asylum seekers, run by nuns, for women and families needing support or handling domestic violence, run by nuns. I always think of these when people just slam religions.

Jewish schools are different? That does not hold your previous thoughts on faith schools.
The thing is with Catholic schools they were always oversubscribed by just practising RC. A lot of Catholic schools expanded from 1 form entries to 2 form and we even have 3 and 4 form entires in some London boroughs which were to accommodate the rising birth rates. Ie 2010 and the influx of other European countries too. Over recent years the birth rates have dropped dramatically and Brexit has seen other European citizens leaving the uk. This has not just hit faith schools but all schools generally. A lot of schools in London are now undersubscribed which was unheard off a while back and some will be reducing their pan. This will probably happen to faith schools too. I can vouch that Jewish schools are also undersubscribed even in a very high Jewish area. The difference is, a Jewish school would never accept a non Jewish person which is completely different to a Catholic school which will.
Have a look at the current reception offer day and see how many people managed to get their first preference school when normally they wouldn't stand a chance. This will go against your theory that Catholics have moved away from the areas and the others are non religious.

Jewish schools are different? That does not hold your previous thoughts on faith schools.
The thing is with Catholic schools they were always oversubscribed by just practising RC. A lot of Catholic schools expanded from 1 form entries to 2 form and we even have 3 and 4 form entires in some London boroughs which were to accommodate the rising birth rates. Ie 2010 and the influx of other European countries too. Over recent years the birth rates have dropped dramatically and Brexit has seen other European citizens leaving the uk. This has not just hit faith schools but all schools generally. A lot of schools in London are now undersubscribed which was unheard off a while back and some will be reducing their pan. This will probably happen to faith schools too. I can vouch that Jewish schools are also undersubscribed even in a very high Jewish area. The difference is, a Jewish school would never accept a non Jewish person which is completely different to a Catholic school which will.
Have a look at the current reception offer day and see how many people managed to get their first preference school when normally they wouldn't stand a chance. This will go against your theory that Catholics have moved away from the areas and the others are non religious.

Hi Elsie, I think different areas are well, different. What you describe is not the case in my outer London Borough (apart from the falling birth rate, which will make a difference here from about 2025), but if you are in the OP's area, then it sounds like you know the position there very well.

I of course have my own values and philosophies (as does the OP) but we do not get to impose them on others through the state school system. And nor should we.

DD's went to the same Catholic school I went to. We all came out thinking that religion is a load of nonsense. The brainwashing obviously didn't work! My kids aren't even baptised, others were CofE, couple of Muslims. Basically a lovely inclusive, kind, school, but yes, a lot of masses and holy days, but at primary it's kind of sweet, and no different really to Easter or Christmas in a CofE school. You don't have to believe the dogma but can still join in the spirit of the ethos.

Hey PhineyJ
i think that's exactly it though, if you choose a state school over a faith school, you have exactly that right and I completely respect that but at a faith school, you know what it stands for before going there, that the religion bought the schools for the purpose that it intends, and if you do choose to go there you are opening yourself up for all that.

I think you'll find that the falling birth rates are already showing massively throughout the uk and as you said, will just fall further and further by the time of 2025 and beyond. I think the only problem that will occur down the line, is the pan will be reduced in a lot of schools (not just faith ones, all schools) and my worry is, it will be like 2010 all over again, where so many children were without a school place but that's a another story.