Is this a normal thing to happen in Reception? (disruptive boy given extra attention) long-ish post

[imaginaryfriend]

I'm going to try to get this in a nutshell but it's quite complicated.

Dd's in Reception with a little boy, I'll call him 'Z' just to make things briefer. Z is a reasonably high achieving boy, he's in the 'top' group at the moment along with dd and 4 other girls, all at roughly the same level (I do parent reading with them once a week so I'm fairly confident about this). Z is an extremely disruptive boy despite being very bright, he's taken up to the Headmaster many times, sent into the 'buddy room', up and down the behaviour ladder. He does some pretty unpleasant things like telling the Muslim girl in the same group that all Muslims are going to go to Hell, telling a physically disabled boy that his built up shoes look 'stupid' and that because he's in a wheelchair he's going to die early. The list is as long as my arm. Dd's always coming home with new tales and Z's frequently the topic of upset for many of the mums whose kids have been physically hurt by him.

So he's a difficult character. The teacher has been giving him one-on-one time for 30 minutes after lunch to 'extend' his literacy and numeracy, a luxury that none of the other children get. Dd, for instance, has had one-on-one reading time with the teacher only once since starting in September when her parent reader was off sick. Z's mum says this is because his behaviour is so bad because he's not challenged enough and he 'plays tricks on people' when he's bored. She believes he's extremely gifted and the school isn't meeting the challenge of his intellect. She has frequent meetings with the teacher to discuss what they can do to give him more yet so far I don't see any change in his behaviour at all.

I, and a number of other mums, are beginning to feel a bit miffed that he gets so much attention when his behaviour is so appalling and that our own children get so little in comparison and I wondered if the teacher's decision to give him this extra tuition was a typical move with a disruptive but bright child. And if so, is it known to work?

I've been wondering whether to see the headmaster about the situation, especially given that dd's parent reader has been away for the last 2 weeks so dd hasn't read to anybody at all for 3 weeks now apart from the group guided reading sessions she does once a week. It seems unfair that the teacher can find 30 minutes once a day for one child and leave others with no time at all for weeks on end.

From what I can gather this is the teacher's first class as she's only just qualified as a teacher.

What would you do? Grin and bear it or go and speak to someone?

Z's mum is very 'pushy', she turns a blind eye to his behaviour problems and is genuinely convinced that it's the school's fault for not keeping him challenged. She said to me the other day that she 'doesn't rate' the teacher. I mentioned that she's getting quite a good deal, especially when there are some children who barely speak English (I listen to the lowest achieving group read and I really feel they could do with the teacher's direction rather than my completely unqualified one) who get no time with the teacher.

It seems to me to be a rather sad condition of our times that the worst behaved child gets the best and the quieter ones who are just getting on with school and doing their best are penalised.

Help me put this in perspective? I've made an appointment to see the teacher next Wednesday and I'd like to go in and say everything in a fair but clear way.

Oops i have Shades of Aspergers Syndrome lurking in my mind too, and am having him assessed ... one way to look at it is that it doesn't matter what they say about him, he will still be the same child. He will still be my (and yoours will still be your) ds1, with his own little quirks that Aspergers or ADHD or any other blasted syndrome had no hand in. He will still be your son, he will still have your dna.

oops, the thing is, from everything you've said about him on here, even when you've been worried, he sounds really fascinating and rather wonderful to me! And I think dd would adore him. We really should fix up that second meeting we talked about for so long. Is your ds2 similar by the way?

Does your school manage to accommodate his advanced reading? I was thinking that although Z in my story is very bright he's not on the level of your ds1. Neither is dd. They're both on the ORT 4/5 tops which I'm impressed with but which isn't in the 'scarily brilliant' scale. i wonder how dd's teacher would manage your ds1 if he was in her class.

stuffit, thanks

The boy has been making nasty remarks and you have to ask where he's been getting his ideas from (such as Muslims rotting in hell etc - how does he even know this girl is a Muslim?) and that needs to be dealt with. Sounds to me like his mother needs to think about what she's talking about with him. My son is 5 and I can't imagine him coming out with such a comment.

IF - clicked on this thread to see if it was my ds you were talking about. Thankfully not as he does not get extra time. He is however the disruptive boy in class and I worry all the time about what other parents think and that they will demonise him (he seldom gets invited to class parties and it breaks my heart every time this happens).

However, I am aware that all parents want the best for their children and there is no reason at all why you should be concerned with another child at the expense of your dd.

If it were my child, it would not want to talk to you directly about it (as I would probably cry), but would prefer you to raise it with the school so that they could talk to me as necessary.

hellywobs I think there are some problems with his mum, as I've mentioned she's very confident and outspoken and she's probably said a number of things which his bright little mind has picked up on. She's very religious, is a head in an Evangelical church so they may have some extreme feelings towards the Muslim religion. But that's pure speculation. He would know the girl was Muslim because they discuss it in class plus she has her hair covered as does her mother and older sister.

GL I think this case sounds really different to what you're describing. This boy is very popular. I do have a friend who's going through many of the feelings you're going through with her ds who's also in dd's class and I feel a lot of sympathy for her situation. It is getting better though as she's had some good meetings with the teacher.

Hi IF, I have just read the whole of this thread and I feel you have come in for some unfair stick.

I can clearly see that you do NOT begrudge Z his extra 30 minutes per day, but that you are questioning the fact that it appears to have a direct impact on your dd and some others in her class.

Imo it is perfectly fair to give children who need it extra time, but it is not fair if that extra time means other children get their time reduced.

I think you handled this thread brilliantly and I am in awe of you, I would have turned into a hysterical weeping wotsit.

Your dd sounds truly wonderful, and very similar to my dd.
Dd quite enjoys school, but finds playtimes daunting (and she will stand in the playground chewing her nails till her fingers bleed )
She is also happiest at home, does not care much for having friends here or going to friends houses for tea. I have encouraged her to do so, but she has always come home not having eaten anything, with chewed bleeding fingers and crying with headache and tummyache.

Anyway, this is not about my dd.

Good luck with your meeting with the teacher. Your dd deserves a little bit more attention and certainly deserves recognition for her reading. As for not changing books for 3 weeks, that is very .

Oh, by the way, my dd is on ORT level 4/5 and is in the top group for reading in her class. So I think that is a great level for reception children to be on

Oops you ds sounds fab, I like him!

hippipotami, thanks for that kind post. You've summed things up very well. I don't resent Z's extra time and if it helps his behaviour all well and good. But I do feel peeved that dd has been in the shadows for the whole of her time in education while people try to meet his needs. It would be easier if he had a known SEN because then the school would put extra help in place for him. But he doesn't and I think it unlikely he will be diagnosed with anything. He's a truly exceptional boy in so many respects. However there are other exceptional children who are quieter and who are not being noticed. That was the point of my post.

And I have felt like running weeping on many occasions when reading some of the more uncalled for responses I've had on here. I'm not an uncaring person.

Your dd is so shockingly similar to mine! My dd doesn't bite her nails, she picks them and she spent much of her first few weeks in Reception in the big playground picking at her nails until the bleed!! She also gets tummy aches at just about every party we go to including her own. The thing is because she's obviously an anxious child in many ways she wouldn't dream of asking for anything from the teacher, she doesn't even speak out when she's feeling unwell or has been hurt. That's why I've kept on with the thread and kept my chin up because someone's got to stick up for her.

There's an Evangelical PAstor at our school and she is indeed very anti- Islam (keeps arguing with me about what Islam means even though i am just 4 weeks away from completing a Religion degree including islam and she refuses to pick up a copy of the Qur'an as it is apparently contaminated ).

There's an awful lot of good points on this thread, masked in places by misunderstandings and defensiveness I think.
The notable ones that jump o my ind are:

. Everyone has the right to fight for their childrena nd raise issues that concern them with the teacher. Another childs SEN (and I am taking a wide perspective on SEN as including home problems, parenting issues etc- not just diagnosable medical conditions) shouldn't affect other children and if it does so then school needs to address with the LEA.

. Parents who shout loudest get most. fact. But nobody should blame the pushier seeming parents- it's just people doing the best they can for their loved little ones.

. Not specific to this thread but it is impossible to tell which kids in a class have Sn or a statement- or indeed which kids NEED a statement as LEA's are generally crap.

. Playground gossip (and i am not saying IF as she is at least prepared to do something here- its the ones who, as my fiend describes it, 'bitch and ditch' I mean) hurts poeple at a time when they are often most vulnerable and need a support or a chat. Again, possibly not IF's situation but most of us will encounter this at some point- a parent going through a DX of SN however grotty their child seems is going through a form of bereavement. Justa smile or a 'how's it going?' can change everything.

. Provision for ASD kids is NOT good even now. My ds3 is facing a school removing his palce after only 2 weeks, he is the least badly behaved child you would ever meeta s he simply couldn't do the challenging side of it. LEA forced him into an inappropriate situation so he can fail before they help and thats common. DS1 is higher functioning and at the other end... the NHS has discharged him as there is a big row going on with the LEA and SS over whose responsibility hfa kids are; SS refusing help for all these kids and cant absorb it; LEA statemented him but there's never any guarantees with it. He has *no^ input beyond his 10 hrs per week 1-1.

One of the things I have wondered here is whether its Mum that has some mild AS issues going on- but who knows? there are parents out there with it though and the vast majority do a fab job.

IF- don't feel downheartened by this thread, you are absolutely right to want to know what's happening if you think your child's education is being affected. It may well be that there is nothing the school can do, but some reassurance that it's temporary or under review at least might help- it may be that extra help is being sourced. But maybe NQT HAS got something not quite right and needs support- well isn't that point of an NQT year anyway?

It's a shame when these threads descend as they can be a great chance to elarn about things from other people's persective. The more non- Sn aprents learn about Sn the more easily kids an be integrated and the more quickly our NT children (and I have at least one, am hoping 2 in 7 weeks!) can learn tolerance. As SN aprents however we need to realise (and most do) that school has to be Inclusive- and that means all. It is of copurse worth ntoing that for soem of us 9and I mean me!) it's so easy to get wrapped up in your situation that you can't see beyond the end of your nose- especially if you have more than one child dx'd with Sn as it feels like a never ending nightmare.

Sorry- sounds like a lecture. But there's valid points coming from all areas and a lot to be learned from all of this.

That's right, Peachy. I have learned a lot from the more considered posts. But I've been upset by the knee-jerk reactions from people who are not listening to me properly.

One of the biggest problems has been the assumption that Z has SEN. When I started this thread that wasn't in my mind and it still isn't. If you knew him and knew his mother you would most likely agree with me. Plus as I've said dd's been with him for 6 months in playgroup, for 1 year part-time in the school nursery and for 6 months full time in school nursery. Now they've been in Reception since last September. I've seen everyone at some point affected by his behaviour and his mum has told me about his various assessments and 'shadowing' session of his behaviour. She's always been certain he has no SEN and to be honest I really don't think he does. If I did I would've been very unlikely to start this thread.

So I've frequently found myself in a position of having to defend my concerns as though i were denying a boy with SEN problems extra attention. At the moment he's not a boy with SEN, he's a disruptive and possibly very talented boy who I think the teacher is trying to keep out of trouble / stimulate intellectually. And even that is not a problem for me if only I didn't feel dd was getting such a raw deal. Again.

No IF I think you misunderstand me- SN is a medical condition yes, but SEN is anything tat can affect educational performance, including stuf flike name calling- that's the distinction in my mind. So when Is ay SEN I am specifically choosing toa cknowledge the fact that it may well not be a SN case, iyswim? there is something going on with this kid though if he gets extra time, no question. But its possible it could be almost anything, and that's why i chose that definition,.

Ok Peachy, I get your point.

Do you think, in your experience, that extra attention can actually be determinental to a particular kind of child? I'm thinking sometimes that Z almost gets 'pandered to' too much. he is very clear that he's 'special' the 'cleverest boy' etc. And the other children see him as that. But i wonder if it wouldn't be better sometimes if he were treated like everybody else. His mum is so pushy and sets him apart such a lot that I wonder if it's been part of the problem from the beginning.

Don't jump on me for that anyone. It's just a possibility that so far hasn't been discussed.

That's a valid point, if he is constantly being told he is special then not really a bonus unless it is tor ectify something that school think is happening outside. ALL kids are special, and every child is entitled to the support required to help them attain their potential. But i actually hate the tag 'special' when applied to either G&T or sn kids- it's just the current fashion though isn't it? I prefer additional needs but you have to assimilate. DS2 isn't any the less special for not having a disability.

MArtian Bishop on here often tells of kids who never hear a word of real praise or support (and i don't mean fort ehir academic abilities- I mean for more personal stuff) and then aim to replicate that by drawing negative attention to themselves because that's the level at which they feel safe, even if it seems to the rest of us to be odd These kids can benefit from a bit of work on their self esteem I think (being arrogant not the same thing). On the other hand it could be reinforcing behaviours as a reward- the teacher needs to watch that very closely indeed. It may be that similar objectives can eventually be achieved by something like the supporters circle ds1 has- where he can take disputes etc to a small number of kids that he feels safe with but have been vetted for 'common sense'. The thing is though that needs them to be a bit older.

I still have a gut feeling that this kids homelife isn't great in terms of how we'd wish it (I was a co-ordinator for a homestart so have seen how variable a crap home can be- and one that instills nastiness and superiority is as bad as many other forms of abuse where it is perhaps easier to intervene). And of course what mum rpesents in the schoolyard has zero relevance on what happens when a door at home closes. So I hope this 1-1 time emans child can continue in MS education because if this is how he is at reception, then the chances of him disappearing are pretty high- i'd have though an EBD school would be the sad final destination! But early intervention is often the ket and its probably worth trialling different approaches to see what goes.

peachy I think the term 'special' is pretty ropey too. Z is such an unusual boy though. I remember a friend's ds saying to me once when i asked him how he was enjoying Reception 'I like it but I'm not clever. Z's the most clever boy in the whole school.' He kind of inspires awe in the other boys. You have to be there to see it. I can't reiterate enough that there is nothing sad or tragic about Z, he's always bounding around and full of life.

I haven't wanted to focus on the mum too much because then that really does turn what I'm saying into gossip. But I also wonder about the home life. The very passive father (who seems very nice by the way) and this full on domineering mother who never lets you finish a sentence. Right from when Z was 3 months old she was competitive about him and what he could do. She's alienated so many people with her opinions on their parenting, their children's behaviour, their lack of social life or ability to maintain their appearance. i could go on and on. There are so many instances of her 'promoting Z' (her expression. She sometimes also says 'facilitating Z's intelligence') that I could list but it sounds like sour grapes on my part. I've sat back for a long time but seeing as i'm always telling dd to assert herself I think I should follow my own advice and do something to stand up for dd's needs.

Not sure it ocunts as gossip in a totally anonymous environment.

TBH it does sound as if Mum has isues herself- with what you say it's not unfeasible she has AS (not that she'd be likely to have a DX- my generation didn't, and not that that's a bad thing either as I have a lot of traits myself). But a total lack of social life / skills would filter down to Z and that may well be what they are addressing here.

Clearly, Z is bright and that's the opposite end to what I am used to (well, DS's are but there is so much else to address). Have you thought about posting on the G&T boards to find out the kids there were assessed? There are G&T schemes I beleive, that might be whats going on.

There is a pupil where I work that somewhat fits Z profile but some years on. Although assessed at primary and secondary, he was not diagnosed with a SN.

Clever enough, highly manipulative, enjoyed very much the attention and fear he engendered in others. Verbally could be very cutting - he was totally confident & coldly detached. Most pupils very keen to keep in with him & enjoyed the entertainment he provided as long as they were not the source. The ones who came in for bullying were the kind, gentle ones as if that was a trait he despised. Mother nice, supportive but ineffectual, father odd. One of the outside agencies predicted he'd end up running his own empire or be in prison!

He spent his last 2 years of primary mostly working with the head - attention he relished. At secondary the head, in absolute fury at his latest insolence to staff and cruelty to another pupil, cut all support for him and told him one more strike and out, zero tolerence from everyone - it was almost as if he'd be waiting to get to that point iyswim. He is now a model student in the 6th form because he's there by choice and because he doesn't want to look a prat in front of girls he's keen to impress. Still wonder though what he'll be like once loosed into society!

Can I just add that the pupils who cause us most problems are those who have religious parents or who are the children of teachers!!

Heated - that's incredible, you've just put Z's character in a nutshell! That's him to the ground. Except younger of course. I sometimes wonder if Z wouldn't just improve if everyone stopped focusing on him so much and he didn't think so highly of himself. It's almost like he feels he has to do something exceptional even if it's exceptionally bad. I think his mum's competitive spirit has definitely filtered down to him. Dp said he thought Z would either end up in prison or the Prime Minister!

Sorry Peachy, what is G&T? I don't know if the mum would be AS because she's so active in the church, on the PTA, is always very keen to stop you to talk etc. She has very manic energy though, talks non-stop and never ever ever lets you get even a third through what you were going to say. It's exhausting trying to communicate with her.

Could still be AS (i'm a one for anything organised- sec of PTA t the moment for example), could be bi polar- who can tell?
Doesn't sound quite average though. G&T = gifted and talented. Schools have G&T programs as well as SEN ones.

taht description of prime minister of prison- sounds so much like my DS1!. exactly what we say about him. very much how we feel.

Oh, I see. How would I find out about if they do G&T at dd's school do you think?

IIRC all schools should do it, but there is a G&T section on here where you could ask?

What do these schemes do then? I must be so clueless, I've never heard of this before.

G and T is (sadly) not gin and tonic but gifted and talented.
(in my personal view this is children who in the olden days (ancient person) would have been called clever, but now I think means children who are not catered for under the current mediocre national curriculum aspirations, and doesn't really mean gifted and talented how most people used to understand the terms but THAT'S ANOTHER THREAD)

I would be very careful when talking about your dd's self esteem. This is because it is a department in your teacher's head labelled "parent's responsibility". She may be sympathetic, I'm sure she will be, but she may see it as something you and your dd have to work on more than she does. If I have got you right, her self-esteem problems are coming from what is happening in class and the lack of attention she is getting. I would focus on what is happening in class, not her self esteem in general, and the fact that she is not being motivated by what is happening in class.

I am sticking with this because my children have been to four different schools in three different countries, under scores of teachers, with hundreds of parents, and I have seen the situation you talk about several times. As the old saying goes -- "There is always one who spoils it for the others". There is very little one can do about the situation itself without getting embroiled in playground unpleasantness. But you CAN improve the treatment your daughter is getting if you approach the school with maturity, intelligence and control, as I think you sound as if you will.

Thanks stuffit. I've been preparing my 'script' for days now. It'll only be if it all goes wrong that I'll start blundering around and say things in the wrong way.

Don't be fobbed off by "but she's very happy", "she always does lovely work" etc. Keep smiling but be insistent because you are, after all, right.

"Can I just add that the pupils who cause us most problems are those who have religious parents or who are the children of teachers!!"

Hi Heated.

Why is that then?

Have you read the "44 Scotland Street" series of novels by Alexander McCall Smith?
There is a "my boy is special" mother and her little boy Bertie as main characters and the satire is so sharp it cuts.
Reading them might be an antidote and help you feel less raw over the whole thing!

But DO raise all the issues that worry you with the school.
Even Albert Einstein had manners and was polite...being clever does not justify being unkind and assuming you have more right to things than other people.

IF you have my sympathy..!

Hope it goes well, and remember the meek will inherit the Earth (tell Z's mum that as she seems to be wholly lacking in either meekness or humility!!!!)