Catholic or Church of England Primary School?

[Honeywaffles1]

I don't practise either religion, but these are pretty much my only options within a two-mile radius.

There are many ”outstanding” Catholic schools, but I've heard that the Church of England takes a more lax approach to religion than the RC church, where converting to their religion is the top priority.

Note: I don't need to be told to find a school that is not religious because I don't want to have to take my son on two buses in the morning and two in the afternoon.

@custardbear Religion doesn't belong in schools - how is that racist

It isn't.
It seems to be your follow up comments to another post that appear to have caused offence. Maybe you would like to re-read what you put?

but open your eyes to what happens in the world ok the name of god / religion.

The officially atheist societies that arose in the Communist world in the twentieth century were not more peaceful than others. They warred, exported revolution, and killed tens of millions of people, including their own citizens.

We can only guess what is happening in North Korea today...

If religion predisposed people to violence, we should see this on the small scale, yet violent criminals don’t usually seem to be devout churchgoers. 🤔

Ultimately, religions don’t go to war. Governments do, and they usually must convince an ambivalent populace of their decision to do so. In this, they may use religion as a motivating factor (whether or not the religion of the enemies is different), but that doesn’t make religion the cause of war.

Anyway, we digress.

If you feel strongly about religion in your child's school, as you seem, to then surely this is a matter to be raised with the school? If fact, if it was such an issue to you then maybe it should have been discussed when your child first attended?

Even with the best will in the world a bunch of random strangers on a forum can't help you.

@custardbear am very sure not everyone try's to resolve issues they've asked forgiveness for.

And I'm equally very sure that you don't have an insight into the mind and actions of every sinner.

what I'm saying is people use religion as a weapon, or a shield to hide behind to do their will

Your argument is lost on me. I really don't know who these 'people' are that you refer to?

@losingit31
I don’t think you understand that CofE voluntary aided might well take Dc from a wider area as they often have church attendance as part of their admission process. Several churches are often named. For CofE controlled, they often use catchment areas like community schools. If you live in catchment, and no other schools have spaces, this is what you get. In rural areas there is no choice.

Also schools must teach the agreed syllabus for RE. Schools should never opt out. Often 2 or 3 other religions are included. Parents can be less than supportive of this but it’s important.

I think all schools should have catchment areas and not select by religion. I do realise catchment schools can “select” by money to live in an area, but that does not necessarily buy the best schools. The religions do tend to want Dc to mould otherwise why have far more than the daily act of worship? We found our community infant school was better than the CofE junior. Their daily act of worship was more about being kind etc and not constant prayers.

@TizerorFizz "Also schools must teach the agreed syllabus for RE. Schools should never opt out. Often 2 or 3 other religions are included. Parents can be less than supportive of this but it’s important."

That's the theory and what it says on the tin. In my experience (village CofE VC primary) the CofE has a de facto opt out on the agreed syllabus for all teaching time on Christianity, whatever the law says about that. The CofE has written its own RE syllabus, "Understanding Christianity" (they call it "just a resource" but it looks and quacks like a curriculum) and the school uses that as its curriculum for the two-thirds of RE teaching time allocated to Christianity and totally ignores the excellent local syllabus except when teaching about the "other" religion. As for "other religions", under the local syllabus they're only supposed to spend half the RE time on Christianity, and should teach about two other religions every year including at least one non-Abrahamic religion. But they ignore that too, they only do Christianity and Judaism until year 4. If parents or the local authority say anything they nod, smile, make a sad face about being misunderstood and harassed by the mean atheists, pay some lip service to the agreed syllabus, and carry on doing precisely what they want/what the diocese tells them to do. I call that opting out. It gives me the rage but there seems to be nothing anyone can do about it. It also makes RE less transparent - as a parent I can see the agreed syllabus in detail and lots of curriculum resources for the blocks of study on the council website if I want to know what's being taught, but there's much less info available about the detail of Understanding Christianity. The church has rolled it out to all its schools and markets it to local authorities and community schools and heavily subsidises training and materials for non-church schools who want to use it...

@Cockerdileteeth
I certainly hear what you say and I would contact SACRE/Ofsted. I’ve just looked at this term’s RE topics at my local CofE junior school and different year groups are covering topics relating to Sikhs and Hindus as well as discussing creation and communion. So quite mature threads. I would complain to Ofsted if the syllabus is not taught and you have evidence for that. We also have the syllabus produced by SACRE. In my LA they have a named contact. I would contact them too.

@tizerorfizz I assure you I do understand, having worked in education for over 20 years including in 3 faith schools and having personally applied for school places at 5 faith schools for my own child. We also have a history of church attendance that precedes her birth.

@TizerorFizz thanks. Ofsted doesn't seem fussed about the nuances of RE - bigger fish to fry - and school only bothered about SIAMS' opinion anyway. The CofE diocese is a quarter of SACRE. LA offer church schools "advice and training" but it makes no difference. DS's school actually says in black and white on its website now that it follows UC for the study of Christianity and the agreed syllabus for the study of other religions, and nobody will do anything about it. I save my breath to cool my porridge now.

They cover quite deep themes in EYFS/KS1 in UC that the agreed syllabus says should wait until upper KS2. They're fundamental to Christianity so couldn't possibly wait to introduce them... The head says it's fine to cover the topics so early, because for the little ones, "it just goes over their heads, bless them". And 10% of the teaching time goes on this stuff that will "go over their heads". Such a waste.

@Cockerdileteeth
What a useless Head! Why would anyone try and teach something not age appropriate? It’s pure indoctrination. At least the local school here sticks to what’s agreed! It’s ethos has changed though since our day. We had a much more inclusive school. I would still contact Sacre rep.

As previous posters have said the religious ethos iof Faith schools varies from school to school. A quick check of the school's website can give you a flavour of the ethos of the school.
My 2 dgs go to different Catholic schools within the same diocese. Last week the Archbishop held a live stream event to pray the Rosary and explore the Glorious Mysteries. At dgs1 school, the whole school sat in the hall and participated for the whole event which, according to my grandson, took over an hour. Dgs2 stayed in his classroom, watched "some singing" and said the Hail Mary and the Glory Be, (Dgs1 was fuming about this disparity)
Dgs1 school has mass in school every week led by the parish priest (there are 2 further whole school assemblies - both religious, and prayers in class several times per day) the children lead mass at the parish church once per month and preparations for First Communion and Confirmation take place in school. During October and May, the children pray a decade of the Rosary every day and discuss the Mysteries. Easter and Christmas are also fully observed. In his class there are 15 Catholics, 10 Muslims and 5 other/non religious. Not all staff are Catholic and the Deputy Head is a Sikh. Dgs 2 school is much lower key. Mass once a term in the church, preparation for Sacrements is done outside of school. A Hail Mary is said each day in Mary's months but he does not pray the Rosary. Short prayers said in at the start of the day, at lunch, start of the afternoon and at the end of the day. Interestingly there are 22 Catholics out of 29 children in his class. Both schools are lovely, caring and welcoming. Both dgs are learning about Diwali this week and both schools have pictures of the Pope, the Queen (don't know if they have updated to the King yet) and the Prime Minister in the main hall!

The ethos really really can vary. I know of a CofE school relatively near here that now is largely Muslim because of the way the population has shifted around an established school!

@CoffeeWithCheese
If you cannot recruit CofE, any child will do! Seriously, it’s probably a CofE controlled school that serves a catchment area which has changed character and parents cannot (or see no reason to) change to another school and stay local. It’s no doubt not ultra CofE

I would never send a child to a Catholic school. I went to a CofE primary which was fairly relaxed. I would withdraw my child from religious instruction and assemb

Continued - assemblies. I think all schools should be secular and faith schools should be abolished.

@Grantanow
I think religion should be personal choice. It’s perfectly available outside school. I know VA schools own the school premises but are still using government money to pay the staff even though they employ them. I much prefer schools to teach Dc to be caring and decent human beings. This doesn’t have to be done via religion. It can be done with stories, role play, discussion etc. Religion doesn’t make people better than their peers.

I think religion should be personal choice. It’s perfectly available outside school
I completely agree. School is for general education and RE should be taught as a comparative thing, to help people understand each other better, not as something factual. Maybe it should be comparative culture as a wider topic, not just religion in fact.
As someone who was brought up in a denomination that doesn't have schools, I have always been slightly bemused by the idea that schools are necessary to teach a particular faith. That's what Church, and home are for. I know that historically a lot of schools were founded by Churches but I think it's an outdated model now. Lots of hospitals were founded by religious orders too, but we don't now decide where to go for healthcare based on what faith we are.
I'm not anti religion at all - I'm a practising Christian - but i think that if you want your children brought up in a particular faith then it is your responsibility to take them to Church/Synagogue/Mosque/Temple etc and to teach by example. It's not the job of the state.
OP - as others have said I would visit the individual schools. Some will be nominally religious, others far more so so you need to look at your options in some detail.

Yep.

".... It's not the job of the state"

huh?
Schools are not necessary to "teach" a particular faith. That's not the actual point. It's about a sense of community with like-minded families. Of course faith is taught and lived at home. This is just an extension of that. Those that don't like it or prefer to avoid it or do not respect it, have plenty of other choices; even if it means getting on 2 buses.

@BlackthornBerry "Those that don't like it or prefer to avoid it or do not respect it, have plenty of other choices; even if it means getting on 2 buses." They really don't. Well, not unless they can afford to send their children to private schools of their choice. In the state system we don't have a choice, we have the opportunity to express a preference. In my area everyone has 1 catchment school and can express up to 3 preferences. So if your catchment school is a church school, as is the next closest, and you don't want a faith school, you can put your nearest community primary 3 villages away as your 1st choice (preference) and another community primary 4 villages away in the other direction as your 2nd choice (preference). But the local authority may well allocate your child a place in your 3rd choice catchment school anyway, because more than 30 other kids who wanted your 2nd and 3rd choices, live closer than you. If you don't put your catchment school down you risk not getting any place, or being allocated somewhere random, which hey, could be a church school because about a third of the primaries are.

Also in rural areas we don't have buses. Well maybe one bus a week mid-morning into town, for the pensioners, if we're lucky. So it's cars on the road and carbon emissions to get to those non-church schools mikes away.

Why, in any case, should children of no faith be unable to attend their local school, making local friends they can play with after school, and have to apply to the undersubscribed school miles away that's in special measures and is therefore a shoo-in for out of catchment applicants, in order to be sure of a non-faith school place.

But I get it. When they go to the local school, either because it was our last "insurance" choice and that's the one we got, or because we listened to the CofE education department line that their schools aren't faith schools and serve children of all faiths and none, and we say stuff is uncomfortable there, people can tell us it was our choice and we should suck it up and stop disrespecting their faith.

@BlackthornBerry but thank you for your honesty that for those of the faith, faith schools are about a sense of community with like-minded families.

I'm in England but my family's from Scotland and NI. I respect your view but mine is that it matters to educate all our children together, not separated in denominational schools.

Ok that's fair enough if that's how it is where you live. I should have considered things may be very different in smaller cities/rural locations and entry criteria may differ. Where I am, it is actually quite difficult for non-faith families to get a place as priority is given to church-goers. Those that get in by catchment alone have to literally live next door and usually that's about 5% of the class but my experience is that everyone is respectful of eachother with no judgement.

Any school that selects by faith is not respecting others. They have tiny catchment areas to keep local children out. It’s not acceptable in this day and age. We didn’t have a VA CofE school, it was VC. It didn’t select by religion but it now stuffs pupils full of its CofE ethos via prayers before lessons etc. Everyone just wants to go to school and learn. We do not want to be forced by a minority to join in and who ensure their religion is paramount. It’s worse where selection takes place. We had no other choice. As do many in the same position.

RC schools don't tend to have catchment areas and pupils therefore come from wider areas - which means they are frequently more diverse in both ethnicity and income levels than other schools.

In some areas of Greater Manchester and other cities a huge number of CofE schools have almost all children of other faiths & ethm

I too believe that faith schools have had their day but reality is that it will never change. But CofE schools where all pupils are of another faith or non do baffle me. They are funded by the CofE church etc RC schools tend to attract catholic

@TizerorFizz We do not want to be forced by a minority to join in and who ensure their religion is paramount

No-one is being 'forced'. Any parent can ask to have their children excused from assemblies if they wish.

And people choose to live where they do. If you don't like the education provision where you are, then move.

It's like people coming to live in the countryside (because they like the fresh air, cheap property, peace and quiet etc) and then moaning that they haven't got a decent transport system, Tesco on their doorstep and a huge hospital 10 mins away.

That's why this country is in a mess, it's full of people who have a victim mentality, always whinging about how hard done-by they are.