Catholic or Church of England Primary School?

[Honeywaffles1]

I don't practise either religion, but these are pretty much my only options within a two-mile radius.

There are many ”outstanding” Catholic schools, but I've heard that the Church of England takes a more lax approach to religion than the RC church, where converting to their religion is the top priority.

Note: I don't need to be told to find a school that is not religious because I don't want to have to take my son on two buses in the morning and two in the afternoon.

@lovelypidgeon just as a minor FYI, it’s not only Catholics that make sign of the cross / genuflect / etc

A CofE clergy friend has her children in a catholic primary with no problems and she’s been invited to teach.

I would find out what it is you want from a school and go from there. As a member of the CofE an “excellent” SIAMS rating is as important as an “outstanding” OFSTED one, but your priorities will be different.

Genuine question. Do CofE not have baptism?
Do you have sacraments? (sort of sacred blessings)?

In Catholicism they are usually in this order

Baptism - absolved from original sin (Adam and Eve committed the original sin and every child is born with that sin on their soul) --reading that written down, it sounds batshit crazy
Confession - you confess your sins and a priest has the 'power' to absolve of your sins (the supreme right of the confidentiality of a confessional box is one which has been contested but I'm not sure whether it has been eliminated).
Communion - you can't have your first Communion (which is receiving the body and soul of Christ in the form of unleavened bread) until you have made your first confession. Ideally you confess your sins prior to receiving Communion at any age
Confirmation - this one I know less about but it's where you become a fully fledged member of the Catholic church
Marriage - it's in eyes of god and not related to the legal side
The Last rites - given to you while dying
Ordination - becoming a priest

and the one that most don't get is Ordination (which is where you become a priest).

CofE baptism is fully recognised by the RC church and vice versa as it's done in the trinitarian manner - in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Other baptisms made in the same way from other denominations are equally recognised - so anybody baptised in that way can become Catholic if they wish (and baptised catholics can become CofE/etc) without needing to be baptised again.

Whilst Communion in the RC church is 'closed' and non Catholics cannot receive it (they can opt to receive a blessing instead), the CofE has 'open' communion where anybody and everybody who wants can receive it (or a blessing instead). There is a fundamental difference in the nature of what it is believed they are receiving - a representation of, rather than the actual, body and blood.

Marriage (in the eyes of God), reconciliation, confirmation, the Last Rites, Funerals are also performed/offered by Anglican churches as well.

There are differences in many, many parts - the ordination of women, the intercessionary nature of saints, the role of Mary, whether there needs to be a Pope elected or somebody to be born into the British Royal Family to be God's representative on Earth (I'm getting way too deep into Ecumenical matters here) - but there are huge areas of commonality and huge areas of difference.

Ok
So this is the Roman Catholic church
www.britannica.com/list/the-seven-sacraments-of-the-roman-catholic-church

The Roman Catholic Church has seven holy sacraments that are seen as mystical channels of divine grace, instituted by Christ. Each is celebrated with a visible rite, which reflects the invisible, spiritual essence of the sacrament. Whereas some sacraments are received only once, others require active and ongoing participation to foster the "living faith" of the celebrant.

From the same source, this is from the Anglican church
www.britannica.com/topic/Anglican-Communion

There are only two sacraments, baptism and the Eucharist, but the Communion honours confirmation, ordination, marriage, reconciliation of the penitent, and unction of the sick as important religious rites.

Are Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians all under the umbrella term of The Church of England?

Anglican - yes, clue's in the name - but the others, no. There are hundreds of churches that carry those names worldwide - some are members of ecumenical organisations such as Churches Together either in their name alone or as a small membership/part of another group member, and do have commonality in doctrine/rites (requirement of membership - belief in the Trinitarian nature of God and in particular), but some don't.

The only one about Catholicism that I like is Confession as I like that you can confess your sins in entire confidentiality, no matter what they are, and that God will forgive you if you repent. I find that soothing to have as an option.

I know there were some attempts to change that law however, priests take a vow to God to never break the seal of the confessional box.

catholicstraightanswers.com/can-the-seal-of-confession-be-broken-or-the-secrets-ever-be-revealed-by-priests/

The mystery of the Sacrament of Penance causes much intrigue and curiosity.
People wonder, “Can the priest ever reveal what is said in confession?”
The simple, straight answer is “no.”

@custardbear
I am saddened by your response.

Today 08:39 you said;
I'm sorry you're trapped in one of those dreadful areas where the schools are religious only.
At 9.47 I asked you
Would you make the same comment about an area that had a Jewish school, a Muslim School, or a Sikh School ?

And at 9.56 you said
Yes of course I would.

In one area where I used to live, with no secular schools within a 2 mile radius, our church went to great lengths to build positive community relations through interfaith dialogue.

Your comments about such an area (containing only religious schools) being 'dreadful' are disheartening and do not help foster co-operation between different sectors of the community.

IMO the only conclusion that readers can draw is that your comments are bordering on racist, Islamophobic, and ant-semitic.

Your first paragraph just sums up how crap religion is, it's giving all those sinners who damage kids, adults, animals etc a get out clause - other religions give the ability to abuse just because of your sexual, or their age/sex, also to kill or maim others - it's disgraceful

I think there is that capacity too. Particularly among priests who were paedophiles and moves from parish to parish with the Vatican being aware.

However, as an ordinary everyday sinner, I like to think of absolution.

@dontdothistome unfortunately many common or garden dinners still use it to absolve themselves of damage and abuse to others.

I agree. Schools shouldn't be professing a religion or presuming affiliation to a religion. Teaching children about all the main faiths and other non-religious worldviews - of course, but that's different.

More than half my family is from NI or Scotland and their experience of denominational schools has made me feel very strongly that it's so important for mutual understanding and community that all the children of a local (geographical) community can go to school together.

My DS is in a village CofE primary in England and only 1 or 2 children a year are admitted on the parental church attendance criteria and it's attended by all the local kids. So it avoids what I think is the worst aspect of faith schools, the segregation of kids at 4 by parents' faith.

DS's school also bends over backwards to be respectful of the beliefs of the (small handful) of children and parents from non-Christian faith backgrounds. (Atheists like me seem to be accorded not quite so much respect.) However, it's still problematic, because it's othering and a bit excluding to be the non-Christian or the atheist spend your days in a school community where Christianity is the default and the daily language puts you on the outside ("our Christian values", "our Christian worship", "visiting our church"). Language matters and has power.

Defenders of faith schools frame this sort of criticism as prejudiced or anti-religious. But it's really not prejudiced or anti-religious to believe as a matter of principle, faith should be for personal and family life and not institutionalised in schools, with one faith or denomination priviliged over others.

The CofE talks about its work in education as being about serving the community and this is of course true but... since sending my child to one I now see the extent to which the Diocese also views its schools as a shop window and an unparalleled opportunity to reach "unchurched families" and further its evangelical mission, though they don't shout about it in the brochure. There's really no such thing as a free lunch.

Of course teachers and school leaders who are people of faith will bring their faith to work in their hearts and it may well inspire and motivate them in their teaching, and that's all good but it's a false narrative to claim it makes them better or more caring teachers than their colleagues whose passion for teaching has different inspirations. Or to market faith schools as inherently having better pastoral care because of their faith. The same goes for the "faith schools are better at values" PR line.

In response to the comment upthread about faith school teachers not having "tenure" and so faith schools not keeping on time-serving poor performers and therefore having better teachers - DS's CofE school employs its staff on standard local authority terms, and at the end of the day faith schools are subject to the same employment laws as any other employers in the sector and you'd like to think they aren't keeping their staff on worse terms and conditions? Poor performance, including performance related dismissal, is something to deal with by good senior leadership and line management, not by insecure short term contracts for all.

I went through the Catholic education system as a Catholic and I've spent time teaching in Catholic/CofE/non religious schools. I refused point blank to consider Catholic schools for my own kids as a result of my experiences as both a child and a teacher - mine attend a CofE school now, as the best option for them locally in terms of class size and inclusion and the personality of the Head - and although there's religious content in the school day, it's at a level I'm OK with as a not at all religious person myself.

I'm also a school governor there now - the slant the school put on their values is something I'm OK with, and actually the support from the diocese is very beneficial for us all - I don't like the praying at the start of meetings but I just sit silently and respect those who do - it's the nature of the school I chose for the kids so I do respect that I need to support that ethos.

@CoffeeWithCheese
You got a choice. Lots of parents don’t. It’s CofE or nothing. Praying before lessons is what would infuriate me. Our local CofE now does this. Change of head and it’s got ridiculous!

@TizerorFizz so true. So many of us have no choice.
I can about live with DS having to be present during Christian collective worship and prayer every day, as an exercise in good manners, but as he is being respectful of their beliefs, it would be nice if they gave him the equivalent courtesy for his non-belief. But it's really not made easy to observe rather than take part. They expect the kids to pray - the blurb says worship is "invitational" but to kids it's an instruction from the teacher or the vicar, not an invitation with an opt-out clause! They don't give them alternatives. For example, DS came home this week saying they'd had a special worship activity where everyone had to write a prayer, and a question for God, and he was upset there wasn't an option for people who didn't believe in God and aren't religious but he was also shrugging and saying "I just have to pretend and go along with it for a quiet life". That's just not right.

@TizerorFizz

If this sort of activity is a problem for you/your child have you spoken to the school about it?

Just as a matter of interest, did you have your son Christened?

@Cockerdileteeth
No it’s not fair. I do know DC are not happy at our local school. When it’s the only school it’s not acceptable that they don’t cater for all.

I'm CofE but taught in two RC and one CofE primary. DD attended CofE infant, junior and secondary schools. She says she learned nothing about other faiths but actually did attend school with children from enormously varied backgrounds, cultures and faiths (west London though)

The RC schools I worked in were much more faith-focused than the CofE one, although going to church and the local priest being part of the school community was the norm in all.

In my experience, the RC school community was largely derived from the local church whereas the CofE school had a wider mix of families and drew from a larger area.

If you're in a small community rather than a city, your DC are more likely to attend school with their neighbours anyway.

@custardbear Your first paragraph just sums up how crap religion is, it's giving all those sinners who damage kids, adults, animals etc a get out clause - other religions give the ability to abuse just because of your sexual, or their age/sex, also to kill or maim others - it's disgraceful

And your posting shows how crap your understanding is of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
There is no “get out clause”for sinners.

Confessing your sins to a priest and getting absolution isn't licence to carry on in your own sweet way afterwards. We have to own our sins, be truly sorry, try and put right what we did wrong and try to do better. Otherwise the Priest can bless us all we want and we won't be forgiven by God.

other religions give the ability to abuse just because of your sexual, or their age/sex, also to kill or maim others.

Not sure what religions you are referring to?

I love this scene from the film St. Vincent. Chris O'Dowd is a Catholic priest in a multicultural class. It's a comedy film.

@PeppaPigsBonnet
How you came to the conclusion I'm racist etc is frankly laughable and I assume it's your idiotic way to try to stop my right to free speech.
Religion doesn't belong in schools - how is that racist? 🤯

@Fromthedarkside - I am very sure not everyone try's to resolve issues they've asked forgiveness for.
As for hurting others ... I'm not going down that road on here, I've already been called racist and anti (enter religion here) but open your eyes to what happens in the world ok the name of god / religion.
I'll say it again, religion doesn't belong in schools, only if it's to teach religion, as theory - not fact.

... and what I'm saying is people use religion as a weapon, or a shield to hide behind to do their will ... rather than religion tells someone to do bad things (in case that didn't come across)

I totally agree with separating state and church.

I abhor all religions - not because I don't believe in God or 'something', but because of the destruction and devastation done in the name of religion.

Before state sponsored education a lot of schools were sponsored by a religion - as a means to convert perhaps but also as a means to educate (to a lesser extent).

Why can't all the religions sponsor education as an act of charity if education is their intention? It's contradictory to sponsor education but on condition of adherence to or conversion to their religion?

In a multicultural environment such as London, it's not good to be limited to schools with your religion. A lot of the religions contradict each other. For example:

Jews believe Jesus did not fulfil messianic prophecies that establish the criteria for the coming of the messiah. Judaism does not accept Jesus as a divine being, an intermediary between humans and God, a messiah, or holy.

Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God.

For Muslims, in the Quran, Jesus is described as the Messiah (al-Masīḥ), born of a virgin, performing miracles, accompanied by disciples, rejected by the Jewish establishment, and being raised to heaven. The Quran asserts that Jesus wasn't crucified nor died on the cross, but was miraculously saved by God.

Agnostics - don't believe in religion but believe in God

Atheists - don't believe in God or anything really

Pagans believe that nature is sacred and that the natural cycles of birth, growth and death observed in the world around us carry profoundly spiritual meanings. Human beings are seen as part of nature, along with other animals, trees, stones, plants and everything else that is of this earth.

How messed up can you get? If you've got children of all those different beliefs in the same school but only ONE belief is taught? How is that fair to any of the children?

It should be separate from education. Religion should not come into anything but it is intermingled with so very much; not just education.

On the flip side, do you then divide all those children up into different schools based on their religious beliefs? Hell no. That just causes further divides.
Religion has no place in a publicly funded school.