Glendower vs Pembridge vs Ken Prep vs Falkner

[Ddbrightmoon]

Hi all

I wanted to ask how people would decide between these schools. We want our daughter to have a well rounded education but also go to a very strong school academically for 11+.

All schools have something going on (FH: uncertainty of the future with changing Headmistress G:Headmistress change although she seems to be doing a great job, pembridge: news of teacher departures and shift to Bute/G/KP at 7+. KP seems most stable and best facilities but G/FH seem a step ahead academically?

There are lots of threads but keen to get the latest view from the group!

That you need exorbitant amounts of tutoring to get into SPGS is a well known fact. The more coaching and professional advice and inside knowledge to pass all those hurdles the better.

And by the way, the girls that I heard got an offer from SPGS but not G&L or Latymer were from previous years. So not really to do with what happened this year.

nhn: Extraordinary to state that G&L did not take reports into account, contrary to the school's explicit statements. Nonsense.

@Utility
Our prep head explicitly stated to parents that G&L this year only looked at ISEB data to decide whom to interview.

Ah, okay. They must have it on good authority from Frances Ramsey then.

@Coronateachingagain

That you need exorbitant amounts of tutoring to get into SPGS is a well known fact. The more coaching and professional advice and inside knowledge to pass all those hurdles the better.

And by the way, the girls that I heard got an offer from SPGS but not G&L or Latymer were from previous years. So not really to do with what happened this year.

On the tutoring point, that’s just not true across the board. Or at least, it wasn’t a couple of years ago. My dd came from a state primary without a tutor, though we did do extra maths and exam technique at home with her. The pre Covid format of the exam allowed her strengths to shine through in a way which some of the other school entrance processes she went through did not.

My observation is that there is a tutoring arms race in the feeder prep schools. And that getting a borderline candidate in is not actually a success.

@Coronateachingagain
‘That you need exorbitant amounts of tutoring to get into SPGS is a well known fact’

It simply isn’t true. Not for my two daughters, and not for the girls of my close friends.
However, what is true is that the girl needs to be quite high IQ, and be at a good school (academic preps is a better bet), and (crucially) have an involved parent.

So - yes - most girls who get into SPGS have done something extra on top of their school work. For some it could have been with a tutor. For many, it would have been extra papers with their parents. Which I do believe is a norm around 11+ prep process.

And of course, there are kids who are highly tutored - and some of them end up at SPGS, and many don’t. Equally - some of those who got in - might have gotten in without it.

@Utility
A few of the Prep School heads mentioned that G&L used ISEB only for interview selection this year. Maybe it was done to give kids a level playing field. As state schools don’t do CATs.

@nhnhnhnh you may be one of the exceptions to the rule, however my conscience would not be happy if I left your comment floating around without a reply for the newbies hoping to get into SPGS.
You are on average giving a false expectation. Of course the girl would need to be bright, and be at a good school, preferably at a prep, and have very involved parent(s). And then tutor and tutor on top if you do not want to leave anything to chance. Every little counts. Every little tip sums up.

Then there is the issue of whether pushing so much is really the right thing to do. I know at least a handful of Paulinas who wouldn't send their daughters there. They say, the school messed up their heads and would rather send their DDs to a different school- be it G&L or Putney.
Thankfully Clarissa is gone now (she herself being viewed as having personally a lot of unfinished business - just have to read her LinkedIn profile to see how she wants to be regarded as) but the pressure on attitude and results remains. Results is everything rules every decision even if it is the wrong decision for the individual.

The majority of state schools happily provide reports, however.
I am intrigued that F. Ramsey has confided in these 'prep heads' to this extent. And allowed them to broadcast the news.

@Utility
I am not talking about school reports that all schools produce. I am specifically talking about CATs score results that are included in the private schools reports, as the only quantitative part of the report.

State schools don’t do CATs. Bit normally it’s not an issue.
But this year - there is a reason not to look at them if you wanted to give state school kids more of a fair playing field.
Most prep schools had their kids on Atom learning practicing VR, NVR and other online test skills that greatly help with CATs. While it wasn’t the case for state schools.
So - in addition to better provision of online learning - those scores would have given prep kids yet another advantage.

So - G&L took their decision for a reason. And there isn’t a reason why they needed to be vague about it. Hence it was public knowledge

Not all state schools will do a report for a secondary school entrance process - ours wouldn’t. So some candidates from primary schools would have neither CAT scores nor a report. In addition, some children would have had basically no teaching for all of lockdown 1, and a lot of catch up / revision of the previous year’s work in the autumn term, meaning even if their teacher wrote a report, the teacher would have little idea of the child’s abilities.

And corona, you can ignore nhnhnh and me if you want, but I have a dd at SPGS and no reason to lie. We did state primary and home tutoring at what I think most prep parents would think of as a very minimal level. Dd isn’t a genius (though bright, intellectually curious and a big reader), and got in.

I think the “tutor and tutor on top” advice is potentially damaging to the child - not just in terms of the time taking away from more rewarding activities, but also in terms of them feeling like a huge failure if they don’t get in after so much effort and expense.

I am not giving the advice to tutor @highropes - I am just saying you need to tutor and tutor a lot to get in.

@Coronateachingagain

Do you have children in SPGS? Or is this a based on other people’s opinions - mostly people who don’t have kids there?

First - you are confusing two issues.

—Issue 1 - pressure and results at school
Is there a pressure in the school that gets bright kids to do well, to deliver their results - where only a small handful of kids get Bs at GCSE?
But if you think that pressure is external - you don’t know much about teenagers.
These girls are extremely bright, have been at the top in their primaries, and are now surrounded by other very bright kids. So - maybe in other schools they could have coasted and still done well. Here they go at a pace appropriate to their ability. And they push themselves.
And that isn’t always easy. And maybe not everybody wants or needs that.
That is why there is some mobility and some do leave.
Or, one day, chose not to send their kids there

—-Issue 2 - extreme tutoring is needed to get in for majority
Not true. For starters - if it were true - those kids would not have been able to keep up for the next 7 years and deliver the results they do.
So - in order not to misinform anyone, here is my first hand experience as a parent and friend of parents in SPGS:

• if your kid is in the local academic prep G/FH/KP/Bute - they have a chance at SPGS if they have been in the top quartile for most of the primary school. They are naturally curious and things come easy to them. External tutoring isn’t needed really - and at some schools - FH and Bute is frowned upon. More prevalent at G and KP - but I am not sure it makes a difference.

What is needed - and what is universally true about parents of these kids - is that they all do something extra on top of the school program. And it ranges from reading with the kids; attending math holiday clubs; practicing papers during holidays; watching documentaries; talking and engaging with the kids on all range of subjects... These kids make up 1/4-1/3 of the SPGS intake. And in a way, probably have the more relatively easy way in as their preps do a fair share of getting them ready. Parents just need to add a little enrichment on top.

• if your kid is in a less ‘academic’ prep in the area, mostly what you need to do over the years is to provide extra challenge, and I’d say it’s better to do a little extra over the years in the earlier years. And some targeted sessions in Y5/Y6 focusing on the harder math - think PMC and Section C questions.

But for English and general breadth of knowledge - needed for the General Paper at the exam - there is no substitute for the parental involvement.

• If your child is at the state school - and here I must admit that I only know a handful of parents personally - here is what I have observed.

For starters - most can’t afford ‘extensive tutoring’ - but their kids still got in, hence it’s possible. So - being an involved parent is even more important here. Extra practice with papers. Some tutoring (if they could afford) on exam technique as state schools don’t teach it. Having a driven and ambitious kid is key because they would need to be doing extra work in Y5 while their friends are playing and having fun. As far as I can tell from my daughter’s experience - kids arrive at SPGS with quite different levels of knowledge. It’s most pronounced in math, but also in science and other subjects. Y7 is then spent on making sure they are all solid on the primary school basics so that they can start on building up to GSCE. So - my guess is that SPGS selection accounts somewhat for the different levels of state vs private education. And that for the state school kids they do, appropriately, focus more on potential. Which is judged by the IQ-focused Pre-test. So, in the end it all comes back to ability. If you have a high IQ kid at a state school, and do something to support and stretch them they will have a good chance. They don’t need to be ‘extremely tutored’ to be at the same level as prep school kids - as that is impossible and unnecessary. They just need to be at a good solid primary school level.

In the end of the day - as much as people like discussing and hating SPGS - it’s only one school. And there are a lot of great secondaries, and many paths a kid can take.

In my experience - many people in the U.K. have hard time accepting that some kids can do better in an academical selection purely because of their IQ and drive.
So - it’s easier to dismiss it as being explained by tutoring.

But in reality - an average kid can’t be tutored to max an IQ score, or get into a top academic school. There is no magic potion for that.

@nhnhnhnh
issue 1 - your comments sound a bit defensive and you missed the point. Truth is, SPGS will not let you take A levels for subjects that you like but you are predicted a B, if you want to do that, you are out. You are not accepted into A levels if you want to take a subject where you are not predicted a strong A. In that respect, they are totally different from the top boys schools (eg St Pauls and Westminster) who will look at the boy and make a decision not only based on results for a particular subject.

Issue 2. Tutoring does make a difference, as someone said made a difference at the KP cohort this year, and this comment is what triggered this conversation!

Overall sounds defensive but good to have some further insight from a parent. Your comments about state school children also apply to children in the normal preps. Agree tutoring is rife at Glendower and KP. FH is probably the exception, but then the school will have chosen families deemed to have a lot of parental input naturally (English speakers, wealthy, etc) and the school will do the tailored tutoring themselves, so they are much better value.

@Coronateachingagain

Not sure what you have against SPGS, but it must be something on some personal level.
However, your facts are simply wrong.

Boys schools - SP and Westminster - have very comparable results at the A-levels. All of them - boys schools and SPGS have 80-85% of A/A and 90-98% of A/A/B
So - all are focused on results - and will steer kids towards their strongest subjects. Just as the kids themselves would chose those to ensure best chances at university.
So - no - boys schools don’t somehow look more at the ‘whole’ child and won’t encourage a sudden interest in art in someone who is likely to get a D.

And in all schools an odd D still happens, btw. Mostly in math and further maths.

If your comment on needing ‘tutoring and more tutoring on top’ for all kids to get in at SPGS is based on what parents at KP said about this years’s admissions - then I am not sure how to explain to you that one can’t extrapolate to the whole dataset from one data point. And a muddled data point at that.

What happened at KP this year is that one of the parents set up a Math club for their kid and made it into a business. Some parents participated, some found it expensive. So - lots of conversations about unfair tutoring. However - both ‘tutored’ and not-tutored kids from KP got in.
And this year the admissions process was chaotic. So no conclusions can really be drawn from that.

So - coming back to tutoring.
Does it help - sure, any extra tuition within reason helps.
Is it necessary to get into SPGS, or any other top academic school - if you have a high IQ child? - NO
Will it help a borderline kid pull up and perform at their top potential - sure

Is any of this fair? - No, of course not. Some kids are born to more involved and wealthier parents. Some have naturally higher IQ. Some will do better, some - worse academically. Which may or may not make them more successful or happier in life.
Accepting these life facts can help you heal with whatever resentments you have about these academic institutions.

@nhnhnhnh "tutoring" is the key word with SPGS. I will leave it there.

As for the boys school, who said Ds? Westminster will take a girl (bright girl) who wants to take Maths and is predicted a B, along with other subjects where she is predicted higher. No chance of that at SPGS.

@Coronateachingagain

What is it with you being so intent on your narrative despite what people with first hand experience are telling you about the reality?
What basis do you have for being this stubborn despite the facts?
Is that so that you can feel better about the school your child is in?

Why do you feel the need to put down other kids abilities in order to feel better about your child?

And I am not surprised that Westminster would take girls with predicted Bs in something. They need to attract strong girls and for most there is no reason to leave StPs. So - if they have other predicted As, it’s what they can attract.
But in your earlier post you were I’m playing that they encourage boys to take subjects with predicted Bs... Which is a different story.
You seem to be quite liberal with facts and make stuff up as you go along.

[quote MMmomDD]@Coronateachingagain

What is it with you being so intent on your narrative despite what people with first hand experience are telling you about the reality?
What basis do you have for being this stubborn despite the facts?
Is that so that you can feel better about the school your child is in?

Why do you feel the need to put down other kids abilities in order to feel better about your child?

And I am not surprised that Westminster would take girls with predicted Bs in something. They need to attract strong girls and for most there is no reason to leave StPs. So - if they have other predicted As, it’s what they can attract.
But in your earlier post you were I’m playing that they encourage boys to take subjects with predicted Bs... Which is a different story.
You seem to be quite liberal with facts and make stuff up as you go along.[/quote]
Oh she was not at SPGS. She had an offer from SPGS as long as she did not take Maths!

Its quite clear that your D wasn’t at SPGS and that you had some personal issue with it.
So - they wouldn’t admit your D to 6 Form to do math with an expected B. So what?
They can set up their admissions criteria at whatever level they chose. And if they have enough candidates with predicted A/A* for their preferred A-levels - why should they have admitted your daughter?

And you realise that if she were a boy applying to Westminster 6 Form - it would have been the same.

But their admissions criteria for girls are different as they need to fill the spots with best of the available girl-applicants. So - your daughter’s predicted B in math made the cut.

It’s not personal - it’s how the system works. And I am sure your daughter did well in whatever school she ended up at.

I am sorry SPGS rejected your daughter. You must realise that your opinions on it are quite biased because if that.

@MMmomDD

Its quite clear that your D wasn’t at SPGS and that you had some personal issue with it. So - they wouldn’t admit your D to 6 Form to do math with an expected B. So what? They can set up their admissions criteria at whatever level they chose. And if they have enough candidates with predicted A/A* for their preferred A-levels - why should they have admitted your daughter?

And you realise that if she were a boy applying to Westminster 6 Form - it would have been the same.

But their admissions criteria for girls are different as they need to fill the spots with best of the available girl-applicants. So - your daughter’s predicted B in math made the cut.

It’s not personal - it’s how the system works. And I am sure your daughter did well in whatever school she ended up at.

I am sorry SPGS rejected your daughter. You must realise that your opinions on it are quite biased because if that.

Not my daughter! Just a data point. I agree with you, I just want to point out how the system works, and they can make that system whatever they want. Just keeping to facts on what happened.

@Coronateachingagain

But I am not sure why you draw your conclusions from that one datapoint.
It’s like saying - it’s unfair for University X to require all AAA for their admission - why can’t my child with AAB grades come....🤷🏻‍♀️
Whatever happened with that girl - has no bearing on the discussion about 11+.

Of course it does, it speaks to the ethos of the school. I agree we have digressed though!

Six form admission criteria - is the the level of attainment applicants need to have. It’s not ethos. Do you consider top university’s grades criteria as their ethos?

SPGS sets their criteria given the pool of applicants. Why do they have to admit someone below their bar?
You may not like the fact that their bar is set this high, but it is what it is.

But you are fixated on this datapoint. And seem to ignore/dismiss other datapoints that tell you quite strongly that you are wrong.
Anyone who is reading threads about SPGS shouldn’t be lead to believe they the only way their kid can have a chance there is by some extreme tutoring.
And - in fact - if anyone needs that much tutoring - and does get it (as it does happen, lots of wealthy and pushy parents around here) - this is a sure way to have a child who’d crash and burn later on.

For my Dd - I always wanted to make sure that she gets into whatever school on her own. With some extra practice and prep - but nothing too pressured.
So now that she is there - she does work hard, but it’s the volume of work rather than keeping up issue.

Hear, hear!