Please don't 'baby' your children

[pineapple95]

Where do I start?

Parents of my y3/4 class routinely carry their children's bags in, take their lunch bags to the hall, hand in letters and money, put their reading diaries and spelling books in the right places on the right days, linger in the corridor chatting ... for goodness sake MAKE YOUR CHILD LOOK AFTER THEIR STUFF!

7-9 year olds can carry bags and remember books. Don't baby them. Even 3 year olds can carry their bags - don't be that parent who mollycoddles their children.

user - are you actually aware that the A-level syllabus has changed and been made significantly more difficult (to reflect the changes to GCSEs) and is also now linear, not modular? I doubt very much anyone has made a comparison yet between the new A-levels and other exams, as I think this will be the first year of the new A-level maths and further maths exams, as the syllabus only started to be taught 2 years ago.

Yes, and that’s why I compare them to the reformed French Bac (syllabus published only weeks ago)

Which has thus not set any exams yet...

Or even been taught by anybody.

Are US AP exams a bit more like STEP papers than normal age 18 academic exams?

The AP math offerings are:
Stats
Calculus (you choose one of two levels, AB and BC - BC is calc II)
And computer science courses.

Students doing AP Calc (either level ) would have done pure maths elements (polynomials, complex numbers, differential equations, linear spaces, matrices and some introductory calculus) the year before AP calculus at either level. Students who studied physics at honours level in their third year of HS would have covered the Mechanics quotient. Students continuing to AP physics would be even further versed in Mechanics. Most students taking either AB or BC calc (the latter is an accelerated course for stronger students) would have been in an honours STEM track and would have done honours physics, with some also doing AP physics.

If you had done pre-calc, AB or BC calc and honours physics you should be able to tackle STEP.

To be fair. My son is 3.5. I do the carrying school bags book bags etc for him. But we are a closed off little unit of a family and Im socially akward (as is my DH) sometimes I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. Obviously my son (and daughter!) will lap it all up if I do it for them. But they're 3. I've never come into contact with kids before popping my own out of my vaj. It's not plaiy obvious egsr I should or shouldn't be doing ("whispers I also have low self esteem and question myself if I do or say the slighter unseemly thing to my children I'm being unfair and potentially abusive *) so I'm a nutshell for freaks like me - perhaps some written expectations?

Egsr=what!

Roundaboutthetown
I don't know where you get this weird idea from that UK children are not given time to develop fine and gross motor skills?!

I don't know where you got the idea that I said that. The important distinction is the focus for four year olds in the US vs the focus for four year olds in the UK, which is phonics/decoding.
I am not a fan of the way American public schools are funded. It is a means of creating segregation based on income, which is often in effect segregation based on ethnic origin or race too. The fact remains that people can often move, and in many cities and suburbs RC schools (private and fee paying, often with scholarships available and with some subsidies from the diocese) provide an alternative to local public schools. I am not a fan of the voucher system so beloved of GOP pols as it has, imo, the potential to trample over the separation of church and state even though it is presented as parental or school choice. Better to use the money to improve public schools. One thought behind the proposals for vouchers is that students who want to work and get ahead are held back by a large cohort of incorrigible wasters who ruin school for everyone. Again, I don't agree with this assessment of what is wrong with public schools. But I am not going to argue with people who get the money together to send their children to RC school or move downstairs from me so their children can attend the nearby elementary school. It is a shame that they feel that is the only way to ensure a decent bite at the cherry for their children.

.............
I agree 100% with user1499173618 on the topic of the appropriate time to start formal teaching of reading in a classroom setting.

zzzzz has confused this with 'appropriate time' for individual children to learn decoding.

The point of delaying formal teaching in a classroom setting is to wait until most NT children will be developmentally ready. Of course there will be children not yet ready and of course there will be those who have been reading since age 3 in any given class. (Two of my DCs read around age 3 without formal phonics instruction beyond me pointing out the sounds of c-a-t and s-a-t).

But by delaying until the majority of children are developmentally ready to learn decoding you avoid the crushing of self esteem of some children and otoh the over identifying of the self with the concept of achievement at a time of important ego development and development of the concept of self. Both results of attempting to formally teach the skill of reading too early in a classroom setting are bad for children as they advance through school. Yes, you may succeed in teaching decoding to a lot of 4 year olds, but the cost is not worth the effort.

When you delay until the majority are ready you don't have to set, you don't have to set up 'ability groups' (as Helix correctly points out there can be up to a year of age difference at play in such grouping).

My early readers were not at all affected by the lack of formal teaching or the lack of teacher input into their reading until they got to age 5-6. There was lots going on in school that was interesting and challenging to them, and lots of groundwork laid for future endeavours. Just not formal reading instruction.

..........
I think it's pretty obvious when someone has absolutely no expertise on a topic like this.

sometimes I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. Obviously my son (and daughter!) will lap it all up if I do it for them. But they're 3.

Not all kids lap it up, and sometimes they lap it up because it's wholly appropriate for then to receive the care and attention they are 'lapping up', which is why they appear to expect and enjoy it. Even if you haven't had experience with kids before, you'll have watched movies or seen in supermarkets other people carrying not just the bag of a 3 year old but also the 3 year old itself, sometimes! Mumsnet can be fantastic but sometimes you'll get a slightly extreme thread which falls into the 'formula feeding parents are evil' and 'attachment parenting is foolish and weak' camp, which can make people feel unnerved and they forget it's not representative of the general public in real life. You often hear people say "never heard such a thing until I read it on Mumsnet". So take it all with a slight pinch of salt and not so much to heart. Get the help you need so you can trust your own logic: is a child really abused if you help them a little bit longer then they really need it? I'd say not at all. Children love independence and it will be obvious when you carry a bag and it's completely unnecessary for a person (no matter what their age is). But the only person that really hurts is you! Which even that wouldn't kill anyone, so keep your perspective about it, I'd say.

("whispers I also have low self esteem and question myself if I do or say the slighter unseemly thing to my children I'm being unfair and potentially abusive) so I'm a nutshell for freaks like me - perhaps some written expectations?

Abusive parents don't care if they're abusive, so the fact you care shows you are not that parent!
I would seriously address your low self esteem. You will be a happier and freer person if you do, and this will be so healthy for your children to grow up around and witness by their main caregiver.
To some degree parenting is one huge guilt-trip, feeling damned if you do and damned if you don't. Sometimes, like breast feeding vs formula feeding, or cuddling your baby to sleep vs controlled crying, people have a very strong opinion but many also feel strongly the opposite way. So you have to work out what you think and follow that, adapting it if you think differently with new information later on down the road.
I'm sure this will be harder with low confidence. So deal with that first. And good luck with it.

That is to @limpbizkit obviously!

mathanxiety - from a personal perspective, I have no problem with phonics being taught later in schools, since my children didn't need any of it, anyway, having taught themselves how to decode before they started school (and how to comprehend the sentences they read, just as they comprehended the sentences they heard and spoke) - provided the school had the courtesy to provide boks and writing materials for those children capable of using them and didn't hide them for fear of crushing the spirit of children who couldn't decode them and didn't tell children off for writing underneath their drawings, or discourage them from being "unnatural" in their development.

At a time of important ego development and development of the concept of self, there is plenty more than phonics out there to crush children if you shove them together in classes of 30 per teacher. Children are not little oblivious creatures who only notice if they find phonics tricky. They also notice if some children poo their pants and wet themselves; if some children are incomprehensible to talk to; if some children bite and hit others; if some children can run faster than others; if some children can hop, skip and use a skipping rope; if some children can throw accurately; if some children are socially confident and articulate; if some children can draw beautifully and others only scribble; if some children have odd tics; if some children can remember nursery rhymes and songs easily; if some children can use a knife and fork and others can't; if some children can ride a bike or tricycle; if some children can use scissors neatly; if some children can make recognisable things out of lego; if some children can count; if some children know their alphabet...

Btw, mathanxiety, the focus in EYFS (when children are aged 4-5) is very much not phonics/decoding. That takes up very little time in the school day.

...there is plenty more than phonics out there to crush children if you shove them together in classes of 30 per teacher. Children are not little oblivious creatures who only notice if they find phonics tricky. They also notice if some children poo their pants and wet themselves; if some children are incomprehensible to talk to; if some children bite and hit others; if some children can run faster than others; if some children can hop, skip and use a skipping rope; if some children can throw accurately; if some children are socially confident and articulate; if some children can draw beautifully and others only scribble; if some children have odd tics; if some children can remember nursery rhymes and songs easily; if some children can use a knife and fork and others can't; if some children can ride a bike or tricycle; if some children can use scissors neatly; if some children can make recognisable things out of lego; if some children can count; if some children know their alphabet...

Indeed, and that^^ is why it is important not to superimpose phonics on such a problematic situation. Clearly there are children in the average class of 30 you describe who need more practice in fine and gross motor skills, and clearly there are children there who need help in the socio-emotional area - practicing kindness, feeling secure even though faced with someone who bites or a classmate who is sitting in puddle of pee, and obviously being supported in self care. All of the children in that average room need input other than the teaching of decoding and the associated assessments. Synthetic phonics is an added layer of completely unnecessary focus.

Moving on quickly every four/ six/ eight/ twelve weeks or so to another stage of phonics, with those not keeping up having to repeat the stage they falter at is completely unlike what happens in PK4 in the US.
www.apa.org/monitor/2012/10/books.aspx
A discussion here of learning goals for children under 5. Readiness for exposure to formal teaching is the aim.
www.foundationyears.org.uk/files/2012/03/Early_Years_Outcomes.pdf
By contrast, decoding is explicitly an aim of EYFS. It doesn't matter how much time explicit teaching of phonics takes up. It is assessed, the expectation that all the children will have made measurable progress is very much present and very much a pressure on teachers.

It's very strange that given this emphasis on phonics, Mathanxiety believes exists, reading and writing aren't considered prime areas of learning in the EYFS.

The prime areas
Communication and language
Listening and attention: children listen attentively in a range of situations. They listen to stories, accurately anticipating key events and respond to what they hear with relevant comments, questions or actions. They give their attention to what others say and respond appropriately, while engaged in another activity.
Understanding: children follow instructions involving several ideas or actions. They answer ‘how’ and ‘why’ questions about their experiences and in response to stories or events.
Speaking: children express themselves effectively, showing awareness of listeners’ needs. They use past, present and future forms accurately when talking about events that have happened or are to happen in the future. They develop their own narratives and explanations by connecting ideas or events.
Physical development
Moving and handling: children show good control and co-ordination in large and small movements. They move confidently in a range of ways, safely negotiating space. They handle equipment and tools effectively, including pencils for writing.
Health and self-care: children know the importance for good health of physical exercise, and a healthy diet, and talk about ways to keep healthy and safe. They manage their own basic hygiene and personal needs successfully, including dressing and going to the toilet independently.
Personal, social and emotional development
Self-confidence and self-awareness: children are confident to try new activities, and say why they like some activities more than others. They are confident to speak in a familiar group, will talk about their ideas, and will choose the resources they need for their chosen activities. They say when they do or don’t need help.
Managing feelings and behaviour: children talk about how they and others show feelings, talk about their own and others’ behaviour, and its consequences, and know that some behaviour is unacceptable. They work as part of a group or class, and understand and follow the rules. They adjust their behaviour to different situations, and take changes of routine in their stride.
Making relationships: children play co-operatively, taking turns with others. They take account of one another’s ideas about how to organise their activity. They show sensitivity to others’ needs and feelings, and form positive relationships with adults and other children.

Early learning goal – reading
Children read and understand simple sentences. They use phonic knowledge to decode regular words and read them aloud accurately. They also read some common irregular words. They demonstrate understanding when talking with others about what they have read.

Early learning goal – writing
Children use their phonic knowledge to write words in ways which match their spoken sounds. They also write some irregular common words. They write simple sentences which can be read by themselves and others. Some words are spelt correctly and others are phonetically plausible.
www.foundationyears.org.uk/files/2012/03/Early_Years_Outcomes.pdf

You skipped a few, Mrz.
Providers must also support children in four specific areas, through which the three prime areas are strengthened and applied.
Literacy
Maths
Understanding the World
Arts and Design

Educational programmes must involve activities and experiences for children, as follows...
...Literacy development involves encouraging children to link sounds and letters and to begin to read and write. Children must be given access to a wide range of reading materials (books, poems, and other written materials) to ignite their interest
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/596629/EYFS_STATUTORY_FRAMEWORK_2017.pdf

Maybe you're not in Surrey?
www.surreycc.gov.uk/schools-and-learning/childcare-professionals/early-years-foundation-stage-eyfs/reading-and-literacy-in-early-years

Maybe you don't teach in this school?
www.cameverlands.org.uk/phonics-teaching-in-reception-class/
In Reception the children start to learn phonics as soon as they start school. This is through 20 minute daily sessions. Phases 1-4 are completed whilst a child is in Reception. The children’s progress through these stages is monitored at regular periods. A child will only move on to the next phase if they have mastered the majority (80%) of the previous phase.

...By the time they reach Phase 3, children will already be able to blend and segment words containing the 19 sounds taught in Phase 2.

Over the twelve weeks which Phase 3 is expected to last, twenty-five new graphemes are introduced (one at a time), most of which consist of 2 letters. The children will now know one representation of each of 44 phonemes. Knowing these new sounds will help them to spell two syllable words.

Sorry, mathanxiety, but you can't make the massive leap from claiming children's egos are being crushed by a focus on synthetic phonics and that this is awful for their self-esteem and identification of self, to agreeing that actually, there's tonnes of stuff already ruining their self-esteem and harming their identification of self and phonics is just another unnecessary one on top of all this, without it being noticed that you have changed your argument!

Why your lack of focus on the huge numbers of children who are clearly just not ready for school at all without it blasting a huge hole in their self-esteem? Why your lack of focus on children behind in other areas - why imply it is only teaching phonics early that sets up lifelong self-esteem issues?! Why your lack of concern for the self-esteem of children who struggle in other areas, but not in phonics? Why is learning silly gestures and sounds to correspond with symbols so much more harmful to self-esteem than absolutely anything else?

Yes, I agree it is an extra pressure on teachers (although largely in year 1, not reception where the focus is, despite what you say, elsewhere). Yes, I agree not all children are really ready for it so early. Yes, I agree there are more important things to worry about. No, I don't agree it is uniquely harmful to introduce it to children early on. And whenever you introduce it, some children will pick it up more quickly than others and children will be stereotyped early on as bright or dim, because that is a human tendency - not based on phonics groups but on all sorts of unfair biases (physically and socially adept children are generally perceived as more bright right from the start - there might be less difference between them and the rest if school in general started later).

As you have pointed out, phonics is just decoding, not comprehension: unless children continue to have decoding problems well into the later years of primary school, it rapidly becomes an irrelevance, not a long lasting canker on a child's self-esteem. From the child's perspective, the physically and socially mature children are the ones who gain most admiration in a reception class and their weaker counterparts in those areas receive the most harm to their sense of self, not the best and worst decoders.

"I think it's pretty obvious when someone has absolutely no expertise on a topic like this" yes it it's very obvious you lack experience of EYFS

Zzzz they don't most skills will develop in tandem