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Please don't 'baby' your children

617 replies

pineapple95 · 14/12/2018 22:48

Where do I start?

Parents of my y3/4 class routinely carry their children's bags in, take their lunch bags to the hall, hand in letters and money, put their reading diaries and spelling books in the right places on the right days, linger in the corridor chatting ... for goodness sake MAKE YOUR CHILD LOOK AFTER THEIR STUFF!

7-9 year olds can carry bags and remember books. Don't baby them. Even 3 year olds can carry their bags - don't be that parent who mollycoddles their children.

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JemSynergy · 09/01/2019 12:56

Never allowed in the school past nursery. My children have always had they own year group entrance and from reception to year 3 they've been greeted at the door by their teacher and then left to sort out putting away their coats and packed lunch. We pay for trips etc online and we even give authorisation for trips online. I do sometimes offer to carry my daughters bag for her, why not? Sometimes is is really heavy and I like doing things for her, she's my daughter.

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Norestformrz · 09/01/2019 06:50

"They serve as a comparison for whatever civil servants and policy makers are allowed to see them. " that would be no one then as they aren't shared with any civil servants or policy makers.

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Norestformrz · 09/01/2019 06:49

"I take it you are not inclined to believe the sample test with the passages and the questions. That is not a screening test. It tests reading and comprehension. Here it is again...<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentnt*^<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">data/file/711236/STA187960e60e<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">201818<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">ks1ks1<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Englishsh<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">readinging<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Paper1r1<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">readinging<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">promptpt<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">andand<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">answerbooklet.pdf.pdfdf" you do realise this is the Y2 assessment paper taken at age 7? It's used to inform teacher assessment and the results aren't reported to anyone (unless parent specifically ask for them). They are only used internally by the class teacher

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Norestformrz · 09/01/2019 06:45

Since I have administered the Phonics Screening Check since it was introduced I'm not inclined to accept your incorrect view

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mathanxiety · 09/01/2019 01:20

It is about trying to keep tabs on teachers and HTs...

...and it will provide 'evidence' that maintained schools are failing, therefore they should be turned into academies, which will be run by individuals or organisations or groups of investors who have made donations to the Conservative Party.

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mathanxiety · 09/01/2019 01:18

I take it you are not inclined to believe the sample test with the passages and the questions. That is not a screening test. It tests reading and comprehension. Here it is again...assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf
Example of the material: '...he couldn't help hoping it wouldn't be the big, blue one'.

They serve as a comparison for whatever civil servants and policy makers are allowed to see them. This is not about rankings for public consumption. It is about trying to keep tabs on teachers and HTs. It will also provide proof that children aged 5 are not able to digest language of the sort I quoted but that won't worry anyone in government.

The organisation hired to conduct the pilot of the new baseline tests backed out because of major concerns.

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Norestformrz · 08/01/2019 07:08

"The aim of testing is to compare schools and to determine progress" since the results aren't published how do they serve as a comparison measure? The aim of the screening check is to identify those children who may require additional support. It follows a method used by Educational Psychologists and Dyslexia Screening tools.

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Norestformrz · 08/01/2019 07:06

No it isn't. At the end of Year 1 children have one five minute screening check ...not phonic tests.

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mathanxiety · 08/01/2019 06:57

Who said it's teachers who make children do phonics tests..?
This is government policy.

The aim of testing is to compare schools and to determine progress, if any, of individual students from Reception to Y6. The child's results will apparently never be reported to the parents. The results are purely for government use. The results will flag students who need extra support, allegedly. Money for this will come from the fabled money tree.
www.theschoolrun.com/reception-baseline-assessment-tests-explained-for-parents

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/01/reception-children-compulsory-tests-2016 Projected now to start 2020. Piloting to take place in 2019. That is this year!

Weird, isn't it, that phonics for all at age 4 is apparently such a well evidenced policy, based on research, and couldn't possibly pose any problems because it is well researched and based on evidence, but only in 2020 will the government get around to seeing whether it is effective.

Kinda supports the suspicion that phonics for all at age 4 is actually a programme designed with party political motives uppermost in mind and not based on any evidence whatsoever, a massive exercise in pulling the wool over the eyes of the voting public, an experiment hundreds of thousands of children have been subjected to, only without any of the means of measuring its effectiveness or issues. A completely cack arsed exercise, in other words.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/key-stage-1-tests-2018-english-reading-test-materials
'Key stage 1 tests: 2018 English reading test materials'

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711236/STA187960e_2018_ks1_English_reading_Paper1_reading_prompt_and_answer_booklet.pdf.pdf
'KS1 English Reading'.
'Paper 1: Reading prompt and answer booklet'.

It seems to me that a serious attempt at teaching focused reading is either made in Reception (age 4/5) or in Y1 (age 5/6) if children are expected to read and respond to this drivel

www.gov.uk/government/publications/reception-curriculum-in-good-and-outstanding-primary-schools-bold-beginnings
Bold Beginnings link here.

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jan/16/tests-reception-children-immoral-england-play
What a sorry spectacle.

Roberts-Holmes says the test risks making social inequality worse, as parents with high expectations will prepare their children, which could mean these infants have a higher score and that higher expectations will follow them throughout their school careers. The opposite could be true for children from disadvantaged homes.

Another problem many early years teachers have with the test is that they won’t be given the results, so won’t be able to use it to help children. The DfE tender document, issued just before Christmas, makes it clear that the outcomes will not be available in detail.

This has led to Early Excellence, the supplier of the most popular observation-based tests used in 2015, to pull out of tendering. Jan Dubiel, its national and international director, says: “We are not opposed to the idea of an entry assessment. But all assessment should support learning. It’s absurd and ridiculous to test purely for accountability.”

He argues that research is clear that testing is unreliable until the age of seven, when the brain enters a new phase of development.

“By the time children are eight or nine they know that in a test the point of the game is to get the right answers. Very young children respond very differently and give you the right – or the wrong – answer in different situations.

“Unfortunately, the government has not engaged with us at any point around baseline even though we have asked to meet them. It’s quite clear that there is ideological opposition to observational assessment.”

The DfE view is that the early years foundation stage framework, which does include observation, helps inform teaching and learning and the baseline tests will inform the government’s big picture on progress in schools over time. In the tender, the government is at pains to point out that the results will not be used to judge teachers or schools.

But many remain sceptical, because the government clearly has concerns about the reception year in some schools. The Ofsted report highlighted that a third of five-year-olds, and half of disadvantaged ones, were not reaching expected standards of development in their reception year. The inspectors recommended more focus on reading, including phonics.

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Norestformrz · 08/01/2019 05:37

Teachers don't make children do phonic tests. There is one screening check (two minutes reading one to one with the teacher) at the end of Y2. The child's results are reported to the parent and identify children who may require additional support. It's the same type of check used by Educational Psychologists and Dyslexia Screening checks to identify early reading issues.

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mathanxiety · 08/01/2019 03:04

Teachers accountable = making children do phonics tests, to make sure the teachers weren't spending their time just accommodating play.

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loolooskip · 08/01/2019 02:34

Snowflakes? Do fuck off. Glad you're not my kid's teacher, you sound unpleasant.

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pineapple95 · 08/01/2019 00:29

Crikey, this school sounds amazing!

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pineapple95 · 08/01/2019 00:23

teachers never ever 'don't see' children with special educational needs. How can you even think that? These children are in our classes, all the time, bloody well struggling because the government won't allocate more money to support them. How dare you say we don't see them?!
Obviously, when I said that children should sort out their own stuff , OBVIOUSLY I didn't mean SEND children who can't do this. You were trying to pick an argument where there was none. Ridiculous.

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pineapple95 · 08/01/2019 00:17

typical attitude from parents of 'snowflakes'. Honestly - get a grip! Children are far more capable than you think.

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pineapple95 · 08/01/2019 00:03

I'm sorry you've had a hard time, but you've misunderstood my post. How on earth can you take me saying kids need to look after their own stuff as a slight on you as a parent or teacher? I don't know you. I don't know your kids. If you are a teacher, I don't know your class. But, any child in juniors should be allowed to bring their own bags in, put them on their pegs, bring letters in, and generally sort themselves out.
To everyone who said I shouldn't let parents in to class etc, it's certainly not my decision, it's a school thing from the head teacher. I hate it, it disrupts the mornings something awful.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 03/01/2019 09:11

It was introduced as a way to convince voters that New Labour was as solid on making teachers accountable as the Tories were

How did it make teachers accountable?

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Yearofthemum · 03/01/2019 07:55

And actually the Labour Party at the time were rather keen on trying to win over some of those gradgrindian types, thoughts I'm sorry to say it.

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Yearofthemum · 03/01/2019 07:53

I think that is probably right Mathsanxiety. Certainly around the same time I was working in another part of the public sector, and measuring value for money was a buzz mentioned everywhere.

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mathanxiety · 03/01/2019 07:19

Yes, they may well know that (if they don't then they are a lot more stupid than I think they are, and that is saying something).

Measuring attainment is a feature of Tory policy that appeals to the Gradgrind mentality. Teachers' and teachers' unions' complaints about the proliferation of tests are interpreted by the conservative (small c) bedrock in England as a case of lazy Reds trying to find a way of sitting on their arses all day watching the clock and letting children run riot. The bedrock likes to see value for money. The bedrock was perfectly happy to see austerity and supported the introduction of academies to replace maintained schools, which were portrayed as a waste of everybody's time and money.

The idea that it was introduced as a cheap way to close the gap for disadvantaged children in lieu of those things is misguided at best.
It wasn't introduced as a cheap way to close the gap. It was introduced as a way to convince voters that New Labour was as solid on making teachers accountable as the Tories were. The notion of 'closing the gap' was a subterfuge that appealed to core Labour voters and the teacher accountability (aka testing) element appealed to core Tories.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 01/01/2019 10:17

I suspect you might be I need a minority in believing that Blairite education policy was Gradgrindian.

That funding started in 97/98 and was about the same time as the NLS was being drawn up. A document that promoted whole language/mixed methods, despite the govt being advised that they should use SP.

SP wasn’t introduced until 2006 after the Rose review. And was immediately followed up by a wider curriculum review which was very much the opposite of Gradgrindian. The only reason that curriculum isn’t in place now is because between all the documents being published and sent into schools and the start of the new school year labour lost an election.

The services were cut because of Tory austerity policies that to widespread cuts across all government funded departments at every level. You can argue til the cows come home about whether this was the right way to deal with a global economic recession and the budget deficit, the labour government might have ended up doing the same if it had stayed in power, but it had nothing to do with SP being a cheap way too cure all ills. Not least because it won’t. And if nothing else I do believe the government know that.

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Norestformrz · 01/01/2019 09:49

The Sure Start initiative is/was very similar to the US Head Start programme ...did the US introduce SSP in order to measure the effectiveness of the initiative?

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roundaboutthetown · 01/01/2019 08:29

Rubbish, mathanxiety - the sevices were cut because that's what the Tories do. The Labour government introduced SP and the other measures, and their intention was never for one to replace the others. There is a lot I hated about the last "Labour" government, but I don't for one second believe they introduced SP with the intention of withdrawing their other measures. As for measuring its value - you are the one arguing SP is harmful for young children and that large numbers are incapable of learning it that young, so I would have thought you would welcome proof of that, if you really want the policy to change.

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mathanxiety · 01/01/2019 07:19

They could only justify the funding if there was some way to measure its value. They thus pandered to the Gradgrinds. And the services were cut because SP was seen as the panacea for all the problems that warranted the services.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 31/12/2018 18:02

It matters because the labour government that introduced it was the same government that introduced free preschool funding for all 3-4 year olds and at risk 2year olds, that funded sure start and home start and children’s centres, that funded book start. It was the same government that provided enough funding for every child in my deprived area assessed by SALT on entry to school/nursery. All of those pre date the introduction of SP into the curriculum. The idea that it was introduced as a cheap way to close the gap for disadvantaged children in lieu of those things is misguided at best.

The cuts to all of those services happened years after the introduction of SP.

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