Would we be better off in Ireland or Scotland?

[PonderingAMove]

Hi,

I currently live in England in a very academic city, and my ds is struggling in school because he can't keep up.

The problems he talks about are that there are sheets of sums on the screen and he can't get them finished before they disappear and a new page of sums appear. He can't keep up in dictation class, he can't go fast enough in spelling tests, even though he gets all the spellings right. He does well with the questions given time to do them, and did well in his SATs. However, he can't go fast enough for the pace of the class and I worry that they are burning him out while he is still only 7.

I think the reason for this is partly that the work is very fast paced and he is surrounded by very bright children. Almost all of the kids have two graduate parents, and several of the parents are university lecturers. In addition to this, ds is young for the year, is behind because of health issues in his early years, and I think he may have some very mild SEND issues holding him back that have not been diagnosed yet. (He responds slowly when spoken to but understands written instructions quickly.)

I talked to a child psychologist and she said the school system in England is very driven at the moment and that there's no way to get away from it here.

However, my dh is job hunting at the moment and I'm wondering whether we should be seriously considering a move to Scotland (where I come from) or Ireland (where my dh comes from).

I was just like my son at his age and I benefited massively when I moved from a very driven English school to a move relaxed Scottish school. The flip side is that we are not very robust and I know I find the wetter climate very hard to manage.

I wondered if the difference in educational ethos is still there and whether ds would really do better in a different system? I really worry about him here because a lot of young adults around here have dropped out before university because they couldn't take the pace. These are kids whose parents are academics themselves.

I would be glad to hear from any teachers who have worked in both England and either Scotland or Ireland.

Thanks!

Is it possible that he has processing speed issues?

I teach in Ireland. From what I see online and judging from the children I have taught who transfer from England, we do seem to have a more relaxed system here. I much prefer it.

Do bear in mind that if you come here, he will learn Irish - he should catch up quick enough if you put some ground work in, but it might impact your decision.

We're English in central Scotland and the schools definitely seem more relaxed, 3 years into primary school and we have been told dc is doing averagely and is fine and that's about the sum of it. Depending on the school, assessments are done but results aren't shared with parents unless in the 'not fine' range.

I'd ask you to ask yourself though, would you not rather the issue were addressed and picked up earlier than later if there is one? I'm not sure I'd want to move schools rather than have your ds get proper support.

Of course there are many other reasons for moving to Scotland aside from education - it is rainy though!

Wherever you are, the school should be providing work at an appropriate level for each child. You need to start by getting an appointment to speak to the school imo.

Liadain what are processing speed issues? That sounds possible. He processes like lightning from written information but when we speak to him there's a definite lag, like when we're on a really bad phone line to the US.

I'm really in two minds, because I got on so much better in the relaxed teaching environment in Scotland, but when I left University I really got in big trouble because no one had noticed that my eyes were not working and I couldn't read properly. Ironically the problem was detected by a development test when I was three, but no one did anything about it.

I definitely would prefer that if he has a problem that it should be caught early. The school are being pretty rubbish and just keep saying that he's not bad enough to spend money on assessments. But then he gets worn out and ill from overwork and then they send us really nasty letters threatening prison if his attendance doesn't improve. The Head hates the letters just as much as we do, but she also says they get penalised by ofsted if ds's health does not improve and we need to think of something.

We have a new GP and the head and the school nurse trying to help now as a committee, but they did a referral for an assessment and the response still said he wasn't bad enough and sent yet another threatening letter to us.

I just get so fed up with the no-help and all the threatening letters.

The psychologist we have been to see is private and costs and arm and a leg.

I suppose it's better to plough on trying to solve the problem, than to have him come out of University and work out the problem the hard way, like I did. It's tough work though. I'm also a bit worried in case there actually isn't a problem and in fact he just can't keep up.

Thanks for your thoughts.

In fairness, the problem with illness has improved a lot since we realised he was short of iron and added a lot more into his diet. We haven't had a chance to test whether that solves the problem yet though because he had a lot of dental appointments last year and so wasn't in school completely all the time. (It was a LOT of dental appointments).

I think this may be too complicated for a Mumsnet thread. It's good to know that the school systems are a bit different though. That was what I thought.

Thanks for your ideas.

Look up auditory processing disorder. As he does ok with written information but not aural work I would be wondering about an assessment. It can be a bit difficult to explain, but essentially while he might be able to hear normally, his brain isn't processing and understanding the information in the same way as other children.

... actually there's a thought, has he had a hearing test? It could be something as simple as a mild hearing loss.

It could also be a general language disorder I suppose - receptive (taking in info) or expressive (sharing ideas). So hard to give accurate information without knowing him. I'd suggest looking at some general checklists (processing, language issues etc) online and seeing if you think he's reflected in their criteria.

Even if there isn't a problem, looking into it would give you peace of mind if nothing else

Thanks, I'll have a look. When the school first mentioned there was a problem I got him a private hearing test and he had glue ear in both ears that was causing very clear hearing loss. The glue ear resolved naturally a few months ago and a test showed that it was completely clear.

I keep wondering if I should have his hearing tested again and ask for a test for auditory processing disorder. I've written to the psychologist to ask who does the apd test (her or an audiologist). I'll see what the psychologist says. They're doing an asd test at the moment and apparently that needs to be completed first, but we've to wait until he's "settled" in school before the observation happens. I wish they'd just get on with it.

It's a complicated business this. I slightly wish the baby books had said more about this and less about baby led weaning and all the other stuff that really didn't work at all for us.

I don't know anything about this sort of thing but I think the issue is with the teacher. why can't he just have a bit longer to do the sums? why can't the teacher say the spelling words a bit more slowly? or have I majorly missed the point?

That's what I think Ummmmgogo.

Last year they were getting sets of 40 words to learn for one test at the end of each half term, but we didn't get them home at all. Fortunately he is a great speller so he did well in the tests anyway, but he'd had no chance to learn the words. 40 seems a lot of words in a single spelling test for a 6 year old.

I know that they are meant to give hard enough work to stretch the brightest kids, but I don't think they should mince the middling kids in the process.

Every time I ask, they say "But we know that he can do the work". They don't seem to realise that he's running at 120% every day to produce these results for them though. He comes home and says he feels like he's been in a torture chamber, or beaten up by bandits and I feel so bad for him.

I'm so torn between trying to persist with the tests and just throwing in the towel and getting on a train.

is he getting a different teacher this year? if he is hopefully that should improve things.

teachers do think it's normal that school should exhaust a child in my experience 😕.

also most schools put the children into ability groups. they don't just spit spellings at the whole class and hope they keep up! could you ask for him to be moved down a group?

basically I think it's one shit teacher and you shouldn't uproot your whole life over it is what I'm trying to say.

I did ask for him to be put down a spelling group but they wouldn't do it. The head said that they have to send statistics about which spelling group every child is in to head office. She said that if a child is seen to have gone down a group then the school is not showing "continuous improvement" and will be penalised, so they wouldn't move him. (Because his needs don't come into it apparently)

This last teacher was the best of the three we've had so far. During reception year I felt as though I was in a torture chamber too. It was rubbish.

The school has a rubbish reputation in our local area but is meant to be in a good patch just now as it got "good" in its ofted test. We're a very multicultural area with most of the children speaking English as an additional language or at least having one parent who speaks to them in another language. I'm wondering if the school is having to drive ds very hard to make up for the fact that basically everyone is struggling for one reason or another and to get their good ofsted grade.

It's really hard to know. I don't really trust what anyone is saying any more as the senco told me that the kids were being driven too hard and that it was affecting their mental health and that I should write to my MP. I did write and got a letter from the minister of education saying that it was the school that was at fault and that I should take it up with them.

I feel as though I'm running in administrative circles while ds is being run into the ground.

Do you think the teacher could be oblivious to ds's struggles? I have been talking to the head a lot but haven't been and seen the teacher day in and day out to drive change at that end of things.

Has someone said that the date for entry to the school year is different in Scotland.
It's Sept in England and Feb in Scotland, so he would be an older child in that class. (unless things have changed in Scotland)

MissBabbs yes that's what I was thinking too. He's a May birthday so the Scots system would be put him in a better place.

Moving north is slightly tricky because dh's career pretty much only happens in the south. There was recently one job he could have done on Princes Street in Edinburgh, but I don't know that part of the country at all.

I grew up in the west and my parents are still there, so we'd be moving to a third location that I know little about. My parents are planning to move to where we are very soon, regardless of where we end up, so that could be solved.

I just don't want to up-sticks if the school problem is us, especially when my parents are planning a big move to join us as well. It's just so hard to know if the school problem is us or the school. Or both perhaps?

The one job in Edinburgh might also evaporate and leave us stuck, whereas if we stay here then there are likely to be lots of jobs to keep us going in the future.

Thanks for all this helpful listening. Just saying all this out loud is helping me to see it all clearly again.

I feel as though the school is trying to get him the academic level that is needed so that they can tick the box that says they can have their ofsted "good" rating. I believe that for that they need something like 84% of kids in each class to reach a certain level. The problem is that in pushing him hard enough to do that they are exhausting him into illness so that he then brings them down on their attendance ofsted test. So he can't win.

I thought that perhaps I could ask for a list of the things that he needs to know so I could help him at home but the list is immense and he can't manage it. I don't even know where to start in teaching him because it's clearly too much.

The latest sticking point is that they want him to do something called division by "chunking" on a number line. So they want him to do sums like 84 divided by 3, by drawing a number line himself up to 84. He is meant to be drawing doing one big arching line on there representing 3 x 10 = 30, and then another big curving line representing 3 x 10 = 30, and finally another line representing 3 x 8 = 24. Then he has to add up the 10 + 10 + 8 to get the answer that 28 x 3 = 84.

This is totally and utterly beyond him and he is finding it very very dispiriting. I don't know why they want him to do this because I don't think it is part of the year 2 curriculum and they said he only dropped one mark in his maths SATs test, so he must be doing okay. He knows what's what too, because he told me himself that he'd only dropped one mark when he came home on the day. He also had to change his trousers because they wouldn't let him go to the loo and he had to wet himself sitting there in his chair. Poor blighter.

so there is your issue. the head is a statistic obsessed dickhead. you can't risk your financial security over that! unfortunately op I think you are seeing why the school has such a bad reputation.

I hope whoever left him wet has to spend a lot of time sitting in their own piss when they are old. how fucking dare they treat him like that.

phone lea and get him on the waiting list for a better school.

oooh I'm fuming for you.

Thanks Ummmmgogo I was sort of reaching that conclusion myself. Saying it all out loud is really helping me to get it straight in my own head.

Do you think the answer is to find a school that has an easier time getting a good ofsted rating, just for being in a less international neighbourhood and moving him there?

I agree about the wetting in the SATs. He had four papers to sit, and he sat in wet trousers through three of them because he was not allowed to go to the toilet.

The thing that makes me doubly furious is that he told me early in the year that they were not allowed to go to the toilet during the SATs and I went to clarify with the teacher. She joked about it and said "Of course they can go to the toilet, we just don't want them running back and forward all the time".

But then he wasn't allowed, and had to wet himself on purpose three times on three consecutive days. I asked another friend and she said her son had had to do the same in one of the exams.

I feel as though we're into multiple infraction of their duty of care I feel really angry about it.

Having said all this, I asked the child psychologist about it and she said that all the schools round here are the same and the teachers are in meltdown too. So I don't know that a local move is going to solve the problem. Home ed is booming round here, but I can't begin to imagine how I would do that.

I'm sorry I really don't know how you find a better school. I keep posting hoping it will bump it for someone more knowledgeable to answer! are there no outstanding rates schools near you? do you know anyone who is happy with their child's school? could you visit some and see where you get a good vibe? there are 38 languages spoken at my daughter's school and to my knowledge no-one has ever been forced to wet themselves so I'm not sure it's the international-ness.

Thanks, that's really kind of you to keep bumping my thread.

There is grade 1 school near to us and actually ds's best friend left a year ago to go there, and he still goes often to stand on the spot where he last played with her and look wistful, so he might enjoy going there.

Two of my best friends have their kids there and they assure me that attendance figures (rounded to four significant figures as we have) are not emailed weekly to the parents. They looked a bit shocked when we told them that that was what we got.

Maybe I should look into that place. Good thought.

well it can't be worse! and he will know other kids there. speak to them in the morning and see if there are any places. xx

Thanks for this. I might also push on with the tests we're having done while considering that, as ds is quite complicated to deal with and a move of schools would also mean moving house, which is quite a complicated thing. Maybe if the tests could figure out what the problem is then we could get to the point where we could move schools without total mayhem resulting.

I will move to Scotland in a flash if I had a choice. Couple who own the holiday cottages where we stay every year are a pilot and an international business person. See no disadvantage in education there.